Mussolini's adventures in Greece

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: UP844

Besides that, the Germans were able to conduct a defensive campaign from the late 1942 to May 1945 against an increasingly improving Red Army.
Do you really believe the Red Army of 1940/41 would have been able to mount successful offensive operations against the Wehrmacht at its peak efficiency?

Totally wrong question.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead
Apologists will claim that this was necessary to protect the Motherland. Then why did Stalin occupy part of Iran? Stalin was just a big, cuddly Bear that would never have moved west. Riiight!

I don't need to prove that he did not intent to move towards the west. It's those who air this theory, from my experience, panzer fetishist lunatics (and Wodin is certainly not one of them), who have to prove it.

What I wrote here is the mere context. You are free to ignore it if that makes you happy.

Almost every single serious historian understands Soviet land grab was purely defensive: buffer territories that should strengthen the state. I guess you know the new defensive positions in Poland proved to be a nightmare. The Red Army abandoned their well fortified original positions and were utterly slaughtered during the first days of Barbarossa. Compare this with the quite successful defence and counterattacks in the Southwestern Front, where the mighty Werhmacht was momentarily trashed. And that was an incompetent, mutilated Red Army army, never forget it.

Coexistence does not mean the country should stop from more or less helping here and there. Every single state does / did the same.

And besides, accusing the USSR of land grab is quite hypocritical when you consider the Europeans (age of colonialism and then imperialism) had grabbed almost every single territory of the planet [:'(]

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: rico21

ORIGINAL: Mind

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

I made it easy, took my chrystal ball and asked Manstein what he thought.
He replied that the three initial objectives are to take Leningrad, Moscow and Baku. The adventure in Greece wasted two weeks that would have taken Moscow before the Russian winter and especially would not have sacrificed the fallschirmjagers in Crete, they would have been dropped on Leningrad and took the city by surprise. When in Baku, the terrible Romanian army would have taken care of it.
Manstein will make a spielkrieg on this hypothesis but he confirmed to me that Hitler was a moron, Mussolini a drag and he a genius.

Okay, one more time. In May 1941 the rivers in Poland were flooding. Unless Manstein was a German Moses no one was going anywhere.

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Totally wrong question.

Why?

[rico21]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: rico21

ORIGINAL: Mind

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

I made it easy, took my chrystal ball and asked Manstein what he thought.
He replied that the three initial objectives are to take Leningrad, Moscow and Baku. The adventure in Greece wasted two weeks that would have taken Moscow before the Russian winter and especially would not have sacrificed the fallschirmjagers in Crete, they would have been dropped on Leningrad and took the city by surprise. When in Baku, the terrible Romanian army would have taken care of it.
Manstein will make a spielkrieg on this hypothesis but he confirmed to me that Hitler was a moron, Mussolini a drag and he a genius.

Okay, one more time. In May 1941 the rivers in Poland were flooding. Unless Manstein was a German Moses no one was going anywhere.

22(june 1941)-15(two weeks) == 07(june 1941)
Manstein knew how to count and and it's not a bit of water that would dissuade the invincible Whermacht at this time.
Not to mention the kriegsmarine.[:D]

[TulliusDetritus]

Like one year ago, a mysterious poster created a thread, in which he said that soon (few months time) the proof of such decision, order would be revealed. That was a cryptic statement [:D] Well, that would have made it to the news. Necessarily. And I mean more or less regular news, not lunatics' conspiracies stuff.

I am open minded. What would prove it exactly? That's what I'd like to know. A Central Committee executive decision? A document signed by the Clown-in-Chief (Stalin)? A war plan surely not. If war plans were a proof then I affirm (pre WW2) the US were going to attack the UK. Yes, that plan existed

That's how the military earn their salary: planning *every* eventuality. So good luck about that.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Totally wrong question.

Why?

Because you're presuming Stalin had a wargame with assigned accurate values to all his units and those of the Germans. Ask yourself this: Why did the Austrians, Russians, and Prussians take on Napoleon in 1805 and 1806 when they were hopelessly outmatched? Hadn't they played the most popular wargames on the subject?

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: rico21

ORIGINAL: Mind

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

I made it easy, took my chrystal ball and asked Manstein what he thought.
He replied that the three initial objectives are to take Leningrad, Moscow and Baku. The adventure in Greece wasted two weeks that would have taken Moscow before the Russian winter and especially would not have sacrificed the fallschirmjagers in Crete, they would have been dropped on Leningrad and took the city by surprise. When in Baku, the terrible Romanian army would have taken care of it.
Manstein will make a spielkrieg on this hypothesis but he confirmed to me that Hitler was a moron, Mussolini a drag and he a genius.

Excuses, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.

The first month of Barbarossa smashed the Soviet armies which stood directly between Army Group B and Moscow. If the Germans had really placed such a high value on capturing Moscow they would not have diverted the Panzers to pocket Kiev and instead would have driven straight to Moscow from Smolensk. Probably would have arrived there by mid August. Instead they diverted south and the combination of time and wear and tear meant they could not resume their drive to Moscow until October.

Alfred

[rico21]

Apologies, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.
True, true also that the Germans underestimate their opponents, their repeated victories comfort them in the idea that they can try everything and succeed.
How could they imagine that soldiers from the cold with the worst winter of the century would inflict their first setbacks.
Siberians, Siberians ...[:D]

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: rico21

ORIGINAL: Mind

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

I made it easy, took my chrystal ball and asked Manstein what he thought.
He replied that the three initial objectives are to take Leningrad, Moscow and Baku. The adventure in Greece wasted two weeks that would have taken Moscow before the Russian winter and especially would not have sacrificed the fallschirmjagers in Crete, they would have been dropped on Leningrad and took the city by surprise. When in Baku, the terrible Romanian army would have taken care of it.
Manstein will make a spielkrieg on this hypothesis but he confirmed to me that Hitler was a moron, Mussolini a drag and he a genius.

Excuses, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.

The first month of Barbarossa smashed the Soviet armies which stood directly between Army Group B and Moscow. If the Germans had really placed such a high value on capturing Moscow they would not have diverted the Panzers to pocket Kiev and instead would have driven straight to Moscow from Smolensk. Probably would have arrived there by mid August. Instead they diverted south and the combination of time and wear and tear meant they could not resume their drive to Moscow until October.

Alfred

Yes, there was a dispute between Hitler and the General Staff about strategy. Hitler was not keen on Moscow because of Napoleon's debacle there, fearing a repeat of that experience. Hitler favored a southern strategy which was half-heartedly implemented by the General Staff in 1942 -- Fall Blau. Too many cooks, really. Perhaps either approach could've come close or succeeded, but not with the split visions on the campaigns.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Totally wrong question.

Why?

Because you're presuming Stalin had a wargame with assigned accurate values to all his units and those of the Germans. Ask yourself this: Why did the Austrians, Russians, and Prussians take on Napoleon in 1805 and 1806 when they were hopelessly outmatched? Hadn't they played the most popular wargames on the subject?

They didn't have a wargame for that so of course they lost. [:D]

The Prussians had one for invading France in 1870 and of course they won. [;)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
would have driven straight to Moscow from Smolensk. Probably would have arrived there by mid August.

... and Vladivostok in October, no doubt.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: rico21

Apologies, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.
True, true also that the Germans underestimate their opponents, their repeated victories comfort them in the idea that they can try everything and succeed.
How could they imagine that soldiers from the cold with the worst winter of the century would inflict their first setbacks.
Siberians, Siberians ...[:D]

The 'Siberians' is one of those myths used to validate an ass whooping. Only 6 Soviet rifle divisions arrived in October and only the 32nd, 78th, 93rd and 238th could be somehow associated with defending Moscow. And the 238th only started to form in March. The 32nd and 93rd were the only ones that had a significant portion of troops from Siberia. Many of the divisions transferred to the west side of the Urals before Typhoon were committed well before Typhoon commenced and they had already been badly mauled or outright destroyed. This is one of those times where the Germans attempted to justify their failure by making up stories.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Lobster
The 'Siberians' is one of those myths [...] This is one of those times where the Germans attempted to justify their failure by making up stories.

Actually, these are the numbers that matter: 150 rifle divisions + dozens of rifle and tank brigades were created from june to december alone. STAVKA never stopped churning out cannon fodder. Germans had a point on this one. If only they had dropped dead and surrendered Except the USSR (unlike France) could afford it: space + time + manpower.

The poor Germans could NOT afford the 700k casualties before the winter though... and that's the whole story.

[rico21]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: rico21

Apologies, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.
True, true also that the Germans underestimate their opponents, their repeated victories comfort them in the idea that they can try everything and succeed.
How could they imagine that soldiers from the cold with the worst winter of the century would inflict their first setbacks.
Siberians, Siberians ...[:D]

The 'Siberians' is one of those myths used to validate an ass whooping. Only 6 Soviet rifle divisions arrived in October and only the 32nd, 78th, 93rd and 238th could be somehow associated with defending Moscow. And the 238th only started to form in March. The 32nd and 93rd were the only ones that had a significant portion of troops from Siberia. Many of the divisions transferred to the west side of the Urals before Typhoon were committed well before Typhoon commenced and they had already been badly mauled or outright destroyed. This is one of those times where the Germans attempted to justify their failure by making up stories.

For me, the Russians are now using Siberian veterans like the SS Korps in 1943 as a spearhead.
It is interesting to see that we do not have the same look at the course of the war at all.
By the way, who won?[:D]

[Lobster]

You have a look. I have official records. [;)]

[ernieschwitz]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Is Hearts of Iron the only game you can play these political what if scenarios with? Most of the Matrix games are battle and operation oriented.

Just run a TOAW FitE2 scenario from May and throw in some weeks of mud at the start. Germany probably could have started mid June without the mud but I don't see it going away much sooner. The entire year of 1941 was one of weirdness. It was like the gods of war conspired against Hitler and his whole conquer the world thing.

I think I made many excellent what-if mods for various platforms. If you want to try one that is global conflict, I'd recommend Global Domination 1938, version 3. It is a mod for Advanced Tactics Gold.