Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J)

[Lowpe]

I tried using kamikazes that fly well above the deathstar CAP's ability to fly, and they were engaged and shot down easily.

You are trying to do it at long range with no other protection....just don't see it working. But, as always, prove me wrong but I guess it will be years before we find out.[:D]

Plus, what is the point at drawing the CAP so high at such great range...there is nothing to take advantage of it. You could accomplish the same thing with Randy A kamikaze close in.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I tried using kamikazes that fly well above the deathstar CAP's ability to fly, and they were engaged and shot down easily.

You are trying to do it at long range with no other protection....just don't see it working. But, as always, prove me wrong but I guess it will be years before we find out.[:D]

Plus, what is the point at drawing the CAP so high at such great range...there is nothing to take advantage of it. You could accomplish the same thing with Randy A kamikaze close in.

Correction to my previous comments, the patsy flies at 39k. Not that it changes much IMO

It's all feeds in to the hollistic strategy needed to make operations difficult for the Allies in the late war.

The Patsy in the kami role means there needs to be CAP over Allied TF's up to 36 hexes away from Japanese bases.

That then requires the Allies to:
A. Include a CV force with every TF operating in that region, and therefore disperse their potential to concentrate CAP.
B. Concentrate their air assets in over a small number of hexes to maximize protection.

Both options massively increase click-fatigue for Allied players, and it's worth it for that alone.

Option B is currently the Allied meta, and will probably remain so.

The key role of the Patsy is that creates a massive 36 hex wide cirlce where the Allies need to provide CAP in. Within that bubble, Allied CAP needs to accommodate the possibility of strikes flying from anything from 100 to 39,000 ft.

Within the context of dealing with the deathstar specifically, the Patsy is the hidden hammer. You can base Patsy squadrons deep, deep into the rear (well beyond Allied recon) and unleash them safe in the knowledge that the Allied deathstar isn't going to bob out of range very quickly.

If you imagine the scenario of an Allied landing on Kyushu, you can safely base Patsy's as far afield as Manchuria to strike at the Allied carriers, and they'll lend weight to whatever aircraft you're throwing at them from Kyushu, Honshu and elsewhere.

[Bif1961]

MIA = Missing In Anniversary? Try missing an Anniversary then you will really be MIA.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'm not sure what version of the game data you're looking at. I'm playing stock, the Patsy is 29 (36) hexes range. The G3M3 is 21 (26).

Those extra 8 (10) hexes range matter a great deal IMO, as now there's a substantially greater number of rear-area bases that the Allies need to defend.

I was comparing equivalent bombloads: 2x250. 26 hex G3M vs Patsy 29 hexes. only 3 hex difference.

And night bombing at 44,000 ft, do you actually get any hits? I don't think I would even have to have night CAP on that. I have to send my G3M at night in at ~7-9K to have any effect. And I generally am at only 21 hex range so 50% more bombload.

Seriously, I don't see this. I'll put it on my list for sandbox, but …. [&:][&:][&:]

OK, you're not talking about bombing, just kami. So see next below.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The Patsy in the kami role means there needs to be CAP over Allied TF's up to 36 hexes away from Japanese bases.

That then requires the Allies to:
A. Include a CV force with every TF operating in that region, and therefore disperse their potential to concentrate CAP.
B. Concentrate their air assets in over a small number of hexes to maximize protection.

Both options massively increase click-fatigue for Allied players, and it's worth it for that alone.

Option B is currently the Allied meta, and will probably remain so.

The key role of the Patsy is that creates a massive 36 hex wide cirlce where the Allies need to provide CAP in. Within that bubble, Allied CAP needs to accommodate the possibility of strikes flying from anything from 100 to 39,000 ft.

Within the context of dealing with the deathstar specifically, the Patsy is the hidden hammer. You can base Patsy squadrons deep, deep into the rear (well beyond Allied recon) and unleash them safe in the knowledge that the Allied deathstar isn't going to bob out of range very quickly.

If you imagine the scenario of an Allied landing on Kyushu, you can safely base Patsy's as far afield as Manchuria to strike at the Allied carriers, and they'll lend weight to whatever aircraft you're throwing at them from Kyushu, Honshu and elsewhere.

OK, in testing night Naval attacks I had two key results:
1. You need high EXP pilots and really good leaders to even launch.
2. Getting them to launch at targets over 10 hex is tough and NOT reliable. Over 15 hex, random, I was never able to get reliable launches. Over 20 hex, rare to launch. Very rare. Like I got it to happen once, and I could not repeat it.

So while your concept I applaud, you will need to share some secrets on how to get it to work because I have not been able.
Night Naval attack with the target within 10 hexes, yeah, barring weather, I can get those to launch and they are effective. Not talking kami here, just a straight Night Naval Attack, G3M, G4m, P1Y, Ki-67 all work really well. B7A can be crushingly effective up to 10 hex.

[Lowpe]

You can't use kamikazes at night.

The Patsy is an interesting bomber, but it isn't a game changer...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.

I think other 400mph+ fighters would stand the best chance of penetrating a 3,000 plane CAP, but they lack the the damage the kikka achieves.

Interestingly enough, the Shinden makes a great kamikaze but will bounce against most warships like all other fighter kamikazes.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The Patsy in the kami role means there needs to be CAP over Allied TF's up to 36 hexes away from Japanese bases.

That then requires the Allies to:
A. Include a CV force with every TF operating in that region, and therefore disperse their potential to concentrate CAP.
B. Concentrate their air assets in over a small number of hexes to maximize protection.

Both options massively increase click-fatigue for Allied players, and it's worth it for that alone.

Option B is currently the Allied meta, and will probably remain so.

The key role of the Patsy is that creates a massive 36 hex wide cirlce where the Allies need to provide CAP in. Within that bubble, Allied CAP needs to accommodate the possibility of strikes flying from anything from 100 to 39,000 ft.

Within the context of dealing with the deathstar specifically, the Patsy is the hidden hammer. You can base Patsy squadrons deep, deep into the rear (well beyond Allied recon) and unleash them safe in the knowledge that the Allied deathstar isn't going to bob out of range very quickly.

If you imagine the scenario of an Allied landing on Kyushu, you can safely base Patsy's as far afield as Manchuria to strike at the Allied carriers, and they'll lend weight to whatever aircraft you're throwing at them from Kyushu, Honshu and elsewhere.

OK, in testing night Naval attacks I had two key results:
1. You need high EXP pilots and really good leaders to even launch.
2. Getting them to launch at targets over 10 hex is tough and NOT reliable. Over 15 hex, random, I was never able to get reliable launches. Over 20 hex, rare to launch. Very rare. Like I got it to happen once, and I could not repeat it.

So while your concept I applaud, you will need to share some secrets on how to get it to work because I have not been able.
Night Naval attack with the target within 10 hexes, yeah, barring weather, I can get those to launch and they are effective. Not talking kami here, just a straight Night Naval Attack, G3M, G4m, P1Y, Ki-67 all work really well. B7A can be crushingly effective up to 10 hex.

I would not use the Patsy against naval targets at night. There are better airframes for that, namely the Frances/Betty/Nell with their torpedoes and radar.

I would use the Patsy against airbases or port attacks at night - large scale nusiance raids against B-29 bases or large Allied ports. The purpose is less for actual tactical success but to bleed CAP off the frontlines. 36 hexes to the rear equates to a lot of bases, and as Patsy has a camera, they can do their own recon. It will keep the Allies honest about dumping ships into port for upgrades/repairs and so on.

With regards to the Patsy against naval targets, it should be used completely in the kami role, in daylight. By the time it rolls around you should have sufficent IJA LB pilots to throw in a few weeks of NavS training so that Patsy's provide thier own search to complement dedicated search assets.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You can't use kamikazes at night.

The Patsy is an interesting bomber, but it isn't a game changer...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.

I think other 400mph+ fighters would stand the best chance of penetrating a 3,000 plane CAP, but they lack the the damage the kikka achieves.

Interestingly enough, the Shinden makes a great kamikaze but will bounce against most warships like all other fighter kamikazes.

Have you got a replay (or better yet a turn file) that provides a good example?

Not to imply that I doubt what you're saying, but I'd like to watch the replay for myself to see how the game generates those outcomes.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Have you got a replay (or better yet a turn file) that provides a good example?

Sadly no turn file, but I did document it in my AAR vs Tiemanj. I used fighters only that had an altitude higher than the CV fighters of the Americans. I was a tad bit disappointed at the time.[:)] I will look for it as I get the chance.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.
...

I understand the sandbox results (never tested myself), but with the range involved, would it actually work? Do players actually bring the DS within 4 hexes of shore? Just asking here. Against the AI I do, but against a player I don't think I would … have to think about that some more.

[DanSez]

Should the Deathstar be the focus of the attack or disruption/destruction of the invasion fleet?
Have to penetrate the cap, yes.
What is the effect of a kami on a fully loaded transport ship?

My luck would be plowing through a bunch of AMs instead. The game system's 'targeting', like its internal choices for task force leadership is poor to incredulous. Other peeps have noted the targeting for subs (shooting the lesser valued escorts). An inextricable problem I fear.

Throw the dice and pray to the Random God.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.
...

I understand the sandbox results (never tested myself), but with the range involved, would it actually work? Do players actually bring the DS within 4 hexes of shore? Just asking here. Against the AI I do, but against a player I don't think I would … have to think about that some more.

Well, yes. It's been sitting one hex off of Shanghai for about 7-10 days now! [:D]

Dan has consistently brought the DS to within 1-2 hexes of major Japanese bases between Honshu and Hokkaido as well. I've not chosen to test out an all-out strike yet.

[RangerJoe]

Just to let you know, I do comment on Dan's AAR. I had looked at yours up to mid' June 1942.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Holy cow, guys! This is crazy, but really interesting. [:D] The game really hasn't started yet. Mike is working on his massive 8 Dec turn right now. He's taking a long weekend for his first wedding anniversary [;)] so I hope the slacker gets the turn back to me before he goes MIA. [:D] I really like the NF discussion. I'm using it in my other game. I've been having a hard time finding the units in that game so this helps immensely. Thanks!

I have made some decisions on my fighter program (and R&D in general). Once I get it all worked out, I'll post it. It's in my head, but I need to put it on paper. My brain is old...

I think you've had solid input from everyone else regarding R&D.

Now I'll upset the boat and suggest a radical proposition for the IJA R&D:

- Do absolutely no R&D or production of any Helen model.
- Improvise with Sally & Lily (including DB varients)
- Put maximum effort into accelerating Peggy T and Ki-74

I suggest this as the Helen is only a series of marginal improvement over the Lily/Sally.

The Peggy T is really a game-changer for the IJNAF, and the 74 gives you a lot of defence in depth. The Helen is a bit of a letdown in comparison.

Interesting. I've heard most of your discussion about the above planes elsewhere. I like the Helen because of the armor it eventually gets. Let me look closer at that.

Petty T - yeah, I'm going to allocate some R&D factories to it this time around.

Ki-74? I don't even know which plane that is! Gotta check it out.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The game really hasn't started yet. Mike is working on his massive 8 Dec turn right now.

Another thing on my to do list is to see if it's possible to flatten Cagayan with a Bombardment task force and invade asap to try and kill his 4E bombers on the ground?

I have 16 Division, 2 or 3 tank regiments and 1-2 small units allocated to Mindinao to take that place quickly. They'll be landing all around the island moving toward the middle. I hope to take Cagayan pretty quickly, just for the reason you mentioned. I hadn't considered bombarding Cagayan because I wanted my surface fleets available to counter Houston and Boise, but it looks like they're fleeing SW. I have the turn and am working it now. Bombarding Cagayan may be something that happens soon. [:D]

[DanSez]

Ki-74 Patsy
a mid 45 level bomber
extremely long ranged
smaller payload than Peggy
a bit faster max speed

Never been in the position to use them. Without massive investment you won't see them till 4th quarter 44. How many game make it to 45?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: DanSez

Ki-74 Patsy
a mid 45 level bomber
extremely long ranged
smaller payload than Peggy
a bit faster max speed

Never been in the position to use them. Without massive investment you won't see them till 4th quarter 44. How many game make it to 45?

Thanks. Yeah, I figured it out as I kept reading. I need to look up its stats. I've never really considered it, probably because it arrives so late.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.
...

I understand the sandbox results (never tested myself), but with the range involved, would it actually work? Do players actually bring the DS within 4 hexes of shore? Just asking here. Against the AI I do, but against a player I don't think I would … have to think about that some more.

Well, yes. It's been sitting one hex off of Shanghai for about 7-10 days now! [:D]

Dan has consistently brought the DS to within 1-2 hexes of major Japanese bases between Honshu and Hokkaido as well. I've not chosen to test out an all-out strike yet.

OK, so now I will have to sandbox those. If I confirm Lowpe's assertion, I may have to make some changes to my RnD plans …
800kg @ 430 mph … yeah, I can see that getting through both the flak and the CAP. $$$$, but if it can keep the DS offshore even, it would be worth it.

[rustysi]

Ki-74, Sorry MM, I'm not a fan.

Only 3 hex more range than G3M, G3M takes no RnD and you get it in '42.

Get it, I too like the G3M. The difference is the other is an Army plane, so it may be useful as well.

[rustysi]

We can get the Helen, but IRL they didn't have that choice as they were just hangar queens

But this is a game and they work fine, and have armor too boot. Don't know how much that helps, but there it is.

[Mike Solli]

In my other game, I'm not really sure how much better the Helen did over the Sally. At the end of 1943, I have a boatload of highly experienced IJA bomber pilots. I guess that means something. *Shrug*

No Japanese bomber survives enemy fighters. None at all. Maybe it's a moot point arguing about which bomber to see shot down.