Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[dasboot1960]

I think it likely that he is not air landing transport in, otherwise, I think ops losses would show up due to the runway damage. I think I recall reading that paradropping supply goes off at 1/2 capacity, but I certainly can't find it now.

[Lokasenna]

Mike - the transports damaged by flak messages will be noticeable in the replay. It doesn't tell you in the message where it's occurring, but during the replay it will be centered on the hex it's occurring in.

[Lowpe]

There is a wealth of information on intercepting transports in the old Obvert vs Jocke AARs, with I believe Alfred chiming in and also perhaps in one of my AARs.

I would search for posts by Alfred about it...surely you will find some. I found this tidbit very quickly, interesting, but doesn't answer Michael's question (but I only did one search and selected one post[;)]):

IIRC I thought the manual says that if you are flying transport supply missions from base A to base B, then you can only protect the transport planes by flying LRCAP from base A (or base C, D etc) over base B. Fighters at base B itself will not provide protection for the incoming transport planes.

Alfred


Long and short of it is that you need to be close, with lots of fighters, and I am unsure if you need to match altitudes. Anything beyond 3 hexes if very is rough. My bad memory seems to think a rough guide is divide the range by 3 to have any chance of intercepting. Other factors come into play too....

The Oscar IIIa if available, has great range and is perhaps the best Japanese fighter relatively early for the task.

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Transports and bombers can drop supplies at a base even with the runways destroyed, they just air drop, and suffer a penalty in capacity...pretty sure that this is clear in the manual somewhere.

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The 8/24 transport and flak report in the ops report would show up in the replay, the map will center over the location, perhaps get a red line showing direction of the transports, and the text shows up in the bottom left. You can pause and cycle thru the messages...perhaps you still have that save around and can watch the replay again?

I have had this happen notably where I was air transporting supplies to my own base and lost the base but forgot to stand down the transports and or a paratroop landing.

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You are at the point where Allied Flak, if present, can absolutely negate your bombers.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Transports and bombers can drop supplies at a base even with the runways destroyed, they just air drop, and suffer a penalty in capacity...pretty sure that this is clear in the manual somewhere.

I am testing this right now and you won't believe what happened! [click here][:)]

Fully developed base, several transport groups transporting supply to an island base in range. Level of runway damage on the island is set in the editor. No enemies on the map. All that jazz.
Contrary to common sense, transports do not fly at all towards the base with the severely damaged runway. I'm currently trying to determine the amount of damage that stops transports.
This pretty much amounts to a bug. Because as you have said nothing prevents supply paradrop in this case. Yet zero supply is transported

Edit: I do not remember what is the formula for airfield closing due to damage, but transports do not fly e.g. with 50% damage on 5 level airfield. And do fly with 50% damage on the 6 level
Edit2: Formula for airfield closing is damage>20+(Airfield Size *5) for strike missions (Manual 9.4.1). So apparently receiving airfield is treated the same way as starting airfield for transports. Both should be open for transports to fly. No paradrops of supply heh.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't know which particular Oscar model is being used but intercepting enemy transport operations from an airfield 4 hexes distant is too far away for some of the Oscar models.

There are two distinct elements involved in intercepting transport aircraft.  The first element involves range of the interceptors. and distance to target  At a distance of 4 hexes and if the latest beta is used, the interceptors need a minimum range of 14 hexes.  If this element is met an interception message is displayed.  This message does not mean air combat ensued.  For air combat to ensue requires the second element, a die roll to be passed.  The greater is the distance to target, the less likely combat ensues.  The longer legged is the interceptor the more likely the die roll is passed.

Alfred

I'm using the Oscar IIIa exclusively here, with a 14 hex extended range with drop tanks. I ran the turn and nothing happened. I had then set to use drop tanks but set their max range to 4 hexes. Apparently that was the reason nothing happened (assuming transports flew there). I reset the max range to 14 hexes this time. One more go.

I appreciate the explanation of how this works. Never knew that was how it worked (obviously).

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Mike's obsessive quest for transport interdiction.

lol, it really is turning into this...

[mogami]

Hi, Setting a low range with drop tanks allows the planes to loiter.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't know which particular Oscar model is being used but intercepting enemy transport operations from an airfield 4 hexes distant is too far away for some of the Oscar models.

There are two distinct elements involved in intercepting transport aircraft.  The first element involves range of the interceptors. and distance to target  At a distance of 4 hexes and if the latest beta is used, the interceptors need a minimum range of 14 hexes.  If this element is met an interception message is displayed.  This message does not mean air combat ensued.  For air combat to ensue requires the second element, a die roll to be passed.  The greater is the distance to target, the less likely combat ensues.  The longer legged is the interceptor the more likely the die roll is passed.

Alfred

I'm using the Oscar IIIa exclusively here, with a 14 hex extended range with drop tanks. I ran the turn and nothing happened. I had then set to use drop tanks but set their max range to 4 hexes. Apparently that was the reason nothing happened (assuming transports flew there). I reset the max range to 14 hexes this time. One more go.

I appreciate the explanation of how this works. Never knew that was how it worked (obviously).

That barely gets you over the first element. Always better to exceed the first element.

It is not, however, comfortably meeting the second element. IOW you face good odds of failing the die roll which determines whether combat is initiated. Even if combat is initiated (IOW you passed the die roll) you then enter the combat algorithms where the interceptor model is not a particularly fearsome killer.

You really should be aiming to base your interceptors (Oscars) closer to Chungking. A distance of 2 hexes from Chungking would go a long way to neutralising the less favourable aspects of the algorithm.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: mogami

Hi, Setting a low range with drop tanks allows the planes to loiter.

Not really relevant in this instance. "Loitering" time is already factored into the interception algorithm.

Alfred

[rustysi]

I thought I had heard somewhere that it's airdropped if there was no airfield.

But that would reduce his range to normal, as airdropped supplies are done at that range, which in this case would be too short.

[rustysi]

The sweeps did nothing, as expected.

One day may not be a sufficient window to make a definite conclusion.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Transports and bombers can drop supplies at a base even with the runways destroyed, they just air drop, and suffer a penalty in capacity...pretty sure that this is clear in the manual somewhere.

I am testing this right now and you won't believe what happened! [click here][:)]

Fully developed base, several transport groups transporting supply to an island base in range. Level of runway damage on the island is set in the editor. No enemies on the map. All that jazz.
Contrary to common sense, transports do not fly at all towards the base with the severely damaged runway. I'm currently trying to determine the amount of damage that stops transports.
This pretty much amounts to a bug. Because as you have said nothing prevents supply paradrop in this case. Yet zero supply is transported

Edit: I do not remember what is the formula for airfield closing due to damage, but transports do not fly e.g. with 50% damage on 5 level airfield. And do fly with 50% damage on the 6 level
Edit2: Formula for airfield closing is damage>20+(Airfield Size *5) for strike missions (Manual 9.4.1). So apparently receiving airfield is treated the same way as starting airfield for transports. Both should be open for transports to fly. No paradrops of supply heh.

Not necessarily a bug.

1. Can drop troops onto enemy location at up to normal range of aircraft.

2. Can airlift troops to a friendly owned base at up to 50% the maximum range of the aircraft.

3. Can drop supply on to a non base hex at up to normal range of aircraft.

4. Can airlift supply to a friendly owned base at up to 50% the maximum range of the aircraft.

5. The quantity of airlifted troops or supply is not reduced by the amount of damage at the receiving airfield. However there is a damage threshold which when reached prevents any airlifting until the airfield damage is reduced below the threshold.


The current game design does not support the dropping of troops or supply onto a friendly owned base. This design is largely inherited from classical WITP. Air transport operations was not a high priority area during AE development.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

The sweeps did nothing, as expected.

One day may not be a sufficient window to make a definite conclusion.

Sweeps do not intercept transport aircraft.

Alfred

[rustysi]

Because as you have said nothing prevents supply paradrop in this case.

Except that as said above supply drop and airlift occur at two different ranges. Or do they? I don't know, see 7.2.4 and tell me what you think. Specifically 7.2.4.3 and 7.2.4.4 p170. Is it still an airlift if the base is inop?

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: rustysi

The sweeps did nothing, as expected.

One day may not be a sufficient window to make a definite conclusion.

Sweeps do not intercept transport aircraft.

Alfred

OK, but then could you please explain what's going on here, especially post 12, where the post says 'sweep'?

tm.asp?m=4567896&mpage=1&key=#

[Alfred]

The post didn't show any combat ensued.  Remember there are two elements, the first indicating the presence of aircraft in the hex.  The existence of a message display bug can't be totally dismissed either.
 
Have you ever seen a dedicated sweep mission finding and combating enemy bombers?  Nor does a dedicated sweep mission loiter over an enemy airfield to increase the operational losses of RTB enemy aircraft.  A dedicated sweep mission has only one purpose, to find enemy fighters protecting the airfield.
 
Where the potential for bugs arises is that the transport operation module is even more abstracted than the standard night (1x) and day (2x) phases.  It is run as a separate module after the night and day operations.
 
Alfred

[mogami]

I just think the Chinese are eating their dead.

[Zorch]

Maybe the Chinese dug a tunnel...

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Because as you have said nothing prevents supply paradrop in this case.

Except that as said above supply drop and airlift occur at two different ranges. Or do they? I don't know, see 7.2.4 and tell me what you think. Specifically 7.2.4.3 and 7.2.4.4 p170. Is it still an airlift if the base is inop?

7.2.4.3 specifically implies that supply drop can happen only to the non-base hex. And this is what I consider to be an illogical restriction. Nothing should prevent supply paradrop to the base hex if airlift is also possible range-wise.
In the test I also ran turns with a scenario not having a base at all in the same target hex, only an LCU. So it was exactly the same range and conditions as for airlifts, and supply paradrops went fine at 1/2 capacity. While airlifts did not happen if the target was sufficiently damaged

[Mike Solli]

11 Dec 43 - An omen of things to come. [:(]

Sub War

The Harder is still hanging around 2 hexes NE of Palembang, smack dab on top of the route to Singapore. I have 3 separate ASW TFs sitting there. Today, Shirataka found her and hit her once with a depth charge. I know she's been hit at least once before. Hopefully that sends here home, but there's probably half a dozen more subs headed there. I know I'd be doing that.

A hex east of Buna, the I-9, who's job it is to scout, not attack, decided to surface and attack an LST. She hit her twice with torpedoes sending her to the bottom, but not before being hit 5 times by a 40mm Bofors. Here's her damage: 6-35(6)-4-0 [8|]

5 Fleet

The 23 Tank Regiment is fully repaired and the 19 Division is repairing nicely now and is at 284 AV. The BBs will reach Ominato tomorrow and replenish their main gun rounds. Then they'll return and I'll finally attack Umnak.

4 Fleet

The US carriers disappeared after their attack on Nauru Island. I have a few subs in the area looking for the carriers in case they return.

I had dropped off some mines by sub at Mili a few days ago and today it paid off. The DD Caldwell hit one and is apparently heavily damaged. The report said 2 mines were cleared. I wonder if that includes the mine that the DD ate. [:D]

SE Fleet

It all started with an 12 plane Betty attack on an enemy TF that had been floating around about 7 hexes south of Truk. They spotted 2 BBs and a CA and hit the BB Massachusetts with a torpedo. I think this is a bombardment TF of 9 ships. I hope they try to bombard Truk. I have 450 mines (yeah, I know, unlikely to do anything) and 99 CD guns. All those base forces that were in New Britain and points south ended up at Truk. There are also a few subs around Truk to give then a warm welcome. Could be interesting.

In the morning the bombers returned to Truk, a total of 187x 4 and 100x 2E bombers escorted by 26x P-38Gs. My response was an even 200 fighters. The first massive raid got through followed by a series of squadron sized raids that did little. Here's the final tally:

Allied:
Fighters: 11 destroyed, 1 op loss
2E bombers: 18 destroyed, 1 op loss
4E bombers: 32 destroyed, 13 op losses

Japanese:
Fighters: 26 shot down
84 planes destroyed on ground.

Japanese pilot losses:
IJAAF: 5 KIA, 12 WIA
IJNAF: 2 KIA, 4 WIA

Truk Damage: 0-54-97

So, the airfield is closed. I have a LOT of engineers there (and supply too) so the airfield should be repaired at a fairly good clip. There is also a lot of AAA so continued raids will cost him in planes lost and damaged, as well as pilots. Truk will recover, this time. I won't station nearly as many planes there anymore. His last 300 plane bombing raid was 11/24/43, so 17 days for him to recover. I expect continued raids to attempt to keep the damage up, but he'll run out of steam eventually due to damage and low morale. I see about 180 planes at Kavieng now (where he's been stationing his bombers. It was over 300 yesterday, so there are a fair number of damaged planes too.

I'm not too concerned about my destroyed planes. My pools are good. I am pleased at the low number of pilot losses, especially the naval pilot losses.

SRA

Quiet today.

Burma

My bombers hit the airfield at Kalemyo, where the level 4 airfield is being upgraded. They caused a decent amount of damage that wasn't fully repaired. There were some Hurricane IIbs guarding the airfield!

China

As I said earlier, the Oscar IIIas performing LRCAP over Chungking didn't do anything. They were from 4 hexes away using drop tanks but set to only 4 hexes. There were 3 units doing this mission from 2 different locations. I reset their max range to 14 and will try it again tomorrow.

The bombers didn't do a lot today. They killed only 5 squads (2 infantry) while disabling another 128. The ground bombardment killed 21 (20 infantry) and disabled 36. There are 164 ground units in Chungking (down 1 from yesterday).

A total of 204 Chinese infantry steps have been destroyed this month.

The Japanese army is ready to go with 11,069 raw AV. Tomorrow, the deliberate assault goes in. Let's see what this does.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement: MTB G-162

Not much else to discuss today.