Banzais Don't Make Victories - Anachro (A) vs John 3rd (J) BTS 5.7

[Anachro]

If you can get WitP working on your computer with switches and various mods, you can install Intel Monkey! Just follow the instructions for installation and setup on the website.

[Canoerebel]

The instructions are indecipherable at my level of understanding. My brain broke. [:)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The instructions are indecipherable at my level of understanding. My brain broke. [:)]

I doubt you have tried them. [;)]

[Canoerebel]

I've tried it. I gave it an honest effort about four weeks ago. What I got done is still on my home computer. But there are common, simple terms used in the installation instructions that are beyond what I know. That's not the fault of the instructions or the instructor. It's my fault.

[Anachro]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I doubt you have tried them. [;)]

Is there any way to stop my anti-virus program from thinking it's a virus. It auto-deletes the program. I use nod32.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I doubt you have tried them. [;)]

Is there any way to stop my anti-virus program from thinking it's a virus. It auto-deletes the program. I use nod32.

When NOD32 deleted my own *(&(^*(& software from my own computer, guess which got deleted next?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've tried it. I gave it an honest effort about four weeks ago. What I got done is still on my home computer. But there are common, simple terms used in the installation instructions that are beyond what I know. That's not the fault of the instructions or the instructor. It's my fault.

I'm sorry; there are only so many 4-letter words to be put in software instructions! [:'(] [:D]

[Anachro]

September 20 1942

John launches a port attack on Kodiak today with his long-range Liz bombers and hits the BB Ramillies 14 times with 250lb GB bombs to very little damage. In the process, John loses 2 bombers to flak and 13 more are damaged, so I doubt another attack happens tomorrow. Luckily for me, I moved most of my surface ships out last turn to see if there would be a possible naval battle to the south. John seems to have some heavy surface ships at Adak - maybe he plans to counter-invade one of my new dot green bases?

Still, this shows the added conundrum of these new Japanese 4E bombers with seemingly unlimited range. Kodiak is 24 hexes away from the nearest possible base that John could have launched his bombers from, Adak. That is a longer range than any of my current 4E bombers can do and I believe the max bombing range for Liz's is 29. Quite amazing.



Elsewhere, in Australia John takes Normanton. However, Normanton is easily in range of my 2E bombers, has no airfields, and is too far away for him to do LRCAP from other bases. So, to teach John a lesson here, I will simply do 2E bombing raids ad nauseum. I'm not sure I can do airfield attacks when the airfield is at 0, but I can certainly do bombing attacks on the port there. More interesting here is the replay showed what appeared to be a Japanese unit half way between Tennant Creek and Cloncurry. Does John plan to move his divisions to Cloncurry from Normanton along with these forces and try to take there too? I will send reinforcements this turn.



In other news, my Chinese units launch another attack and further degrade John's units. The attack today showed 3 out of the 4 IJA divisions there with 0 AV during the attack. The 4th one was brought down to 0 AV today. The attack tomorrow might very well be successful. Furthermore, our forces in the south discovered that John might be keeping his flank there relatively weak. In other news, an American sub launched torpedoes against some Japanese carrier called "Kaimon" near Canton Island and managed to...miss.

[Canoerebel]

You'll probably adapt well to the threat posed by the Liz. In the end it probably won't prove to be that big a deal. But what a silly creation it is. How can anybody take seriously a mod in which Japanese heavy bombers have 50% more range than the best Allied bombers?

You and I volunteer for the matches against John using his mods, so we're kinda asking for it. But you might want to have a frank discussion with John before things get veer too far from reality. Stuff like this makes him look cartoonish.

[Anachro]

Well, my return email to John with the turn said "Something, something, Liz's with unlimited range." and John's reply was:

Not really. Kodiak is in range of my Nells--just barely...

So I'm not sure if he thinks so. I think there is a different between Nells and heavy bombers, though.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

But what a silly creation it is. How can anybody take seriously a mod in which Japanese heavy bombers have 50% more range than the best Allied bombers?

Oh come on;

like every other naval Japanese airplane, check it please;

you can add to the fray the Peggy and the other late VLG Army bomber, + others for Army's side

ORIGINAL: Anachro
I think there is a different between Nells and heavy bombers, though

Yes, that the latter have longer range

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Anachro
Elsewhere, in Australia John takes Normanton. However, Normanton is easily in range of my 2E bombers, has no airfields, and is too far away for him to do LRCAP from other bases. So, to teach John a lesson here, I will simply do 2E bombing raids ad nauseum.

[Anachro]

I have yet to see Rufes in-game and doubt John has any nearby. If they do appear, I can easily sweep with fighters from Cloncurry. Not a problem.

As for the bombers, I see that your ascribe to fantasy land like John on them, but regardless of how you feel in that regard, you cannot use the light-weight, light construction Nells (and other Japanese planes of similar make, light bomb load, and thus long range) as a counterpoint when discussing the range of 4E fantasy bombers that go farther, have equivalent armor, and carry a greater bomb load then their American counterparts. You are comparing apples to oranges. The Liz's stats don't match with its attributes and it's a tad unrealistic. There's a reason a lot of the planes in Japan's naval arsenal had longer range...and there's a reason they were a lot more easily destroyed and combustible.

And before you spout off the plane's theoretical specifications from Wikipedia, please remember that the plane was judged not fit with design flaws that caused Japan not to pursue further development. It's all well and good to believe that in an alternate history Japan somehow succeeding in producing some form of the Liz that was viable, but if you are going to do that you need to justify some sacrifices to be made to account for that. Maybe Japan solved it's problems by reducing the armor and max bomb load, maybe it produced some new configuration of construction material and engines that fixed the under-powered nature of the plane, but if you do these there will be sacrifices: perhaps the new engines and amplified power means reduced range and endurance, perhaps they sacrifice armor and durability in order to get best range and bomb load possible.

As it stands now, the mod assumes none of these things are needed and the Liz reaches its theoretical specifications according to Wikipedia without any issues. The end result is a bomber whose specifications are nearly a match for their American equivalents with longer range. This is fantasy.

[adarbrauner]

When you'll read John's AAR you see I've proposed him to reduce Liz's payload at ext range + practical ceiling limit, in the underpowered version, and he agreed

[Anachro]

September 21 1942

John puts a large amount of zeroes and Tojos over the skies of Asanol and my CAP + escort isn't enough to offset his fighters. My CAP does pretty well and certainly deals more than it takes in terms of attrition, but John's LRCAP is able to break through my CAP/ESCORTS to eat into the bombers and I lose about ~60 planes in total for the day of mostly bombers and some fighters. John loses ~30 fighters as a result. Given that his fighters took some damage, I launch mass sweeps for the next day against Calcutta and Howrah followed by massed bombings against Calcutta. In addition, I am launching sporadic bombings against Cuttack, Viza, and Trincomalee, trying to find where John is basing his bombers. I've bombed Howrah, Rajnashi (or w.e. its called) and Dacca over the past week and done damage to the airfields there without finding massed bombers on the ground. Time to look elsewhere.

In China, John's divisions are in danger of being completely wrecked or destroyed. Given that they didn't fall back this turn, I'm starting to wonder if they are surrounded. John also moves across the river elsewhere with two divisions and loses a division's worth of squads to disablements.

Ground combat at 76,46 (near Chungking)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 61445 troops, 92 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2123

Defending force 36303 troops, 375 guns, 44 vehicles, Assault Value = 116

Allied adjusted assault: 160

Japanese adjusted defense: 205

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
3989 casualties reported
Squads: 357 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
Engineers: 15 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 45 (5 destroyed, 40 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
817 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 80 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defending units:
63rd Division
37th Division
110th Division
29th Division

Ground combat at 75,46 (near Chungking)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 25305 troops, 204 guns, 28 vehicles, Assault Value = 776

Defending force 31993 troops, 119 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1075

Japanese adjusted assault: 489

Allied adjusted defense: 1090

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
3341 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 309 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 32 (1 destroyed, 31 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
250 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
34th Division
35th Division
1st Army
12th Army

Defending units:
91st Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
4th Group Army

[CaptBeefheart]

Some good comments on this mod. The Liz really causes the Allied player to be more cautious, and with more flattops and carrier-capable fighters, the KB could easily be viable until 1945. On the other hand, Juan's aircraft purchase system should help. Anachro: Are you making much use of that? Do you have enough PPs to buy the aircraft you need? Is there anything else noticeable that helps you out vs. stock?

Cheers,
CB

[Bif1961]

If every weapon lived up to estimates then the MK-14 US fleet 21 inch torpedo would have been sinking massive Japanese ships in 1941 and not made into a viable weapon in 1943 after 18 months of futility. There are many examples where weapon systems didn't live up to specifications and some that were much better than anticipated. The short comings of the Liz were well known by the Japanese and is the primary reason it was never built as a bomber, they built only 6 and used them all as transports. This mod is a what if, and if approached that way, then it can be played and be fun, but it is not historical. The same can be said for the Germans, what if they decided to make a strategic bomber instead of concentrating on combat support aircraft like the Stuka and short range medium bombers? What if the British had not developed RADAR, which was the decisive factor in their ability to marshal their smaller air force against German bombing attacks during the Battle of Britain? There is a difference between what if Japan didn't attack PH and instead focused PI-DEI-Malayan axis, like the American planners thought they would, using, using the same historic forces and equipment? Now that would be a historic what if without enhancing the ability of one country over the other. John is working to tinker with the mod and he mentioned the Liz is one of those to be changed to lessen it's stats because it pratically turns it into a B-29 2 years before the Americans made a B-29, after spending almost 2 billion dollars and with the massive US manufacturing and engineering base to support that type of effort while having little affect in other areas. If the Japanese did build the Liz, assuming it worked as a decent strategic bomber, it would have to be offset by losses elsewhere, as Japan didn't have the spare capacity. So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon, or additional high altitude AAA? Where is the balance then, as you tip the scale in one direction shouldn't you counter-balance or at least attempt to do so?

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961
So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon

Is a balance so important really? The game itself is in no way balanced and never was, and that is one of the reasons we love it. Some shiny toys with a bit of fantasy mixed in here and there would not change the final fate of Japan. E.g. I can imagine some alternative history mod where Japan did everything right before the war (well, except waking the sleeping giant that is), quelled its faction struggle, made some tech breakthroughs/purchases.. And still lost in the end.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

If every weapon lived up to estimates then the MK-14 US fleet 21 inch torpedo would have been sinking massive Japanese ships in 1941 and not made into a viable weapon in 1943 after 18 months of futility. There are many examples where weapon systems didn't live up to specifications and some that were much better than anticipated. The short comings of the Liz were well known by the Japanese and is the primary reason it was never built as a bomber, they built only 6 and used them all as transports. This mod is a what if, and if approached that way, then it can be played and be fun, but it is not historical. The same can be said for the Germans, what if they decided to make a strategic bomber instead of concentrating on combat support aircraft like the Stuka and short range medium bombers? What if the British had not developed RADAR, which was the decisive factor in their ability to marshal their smaller air force against German bombing attacks during the Battle of Britain? There is a difference between what if Japan didn't attack PH and instead focused PI-DEI-Malayan axis, like the American planners thought they would, using, using the same historic forces and equipment? Now that would be a historic what if without enhancing the ability of one country over the other. John is working to tinker with the mod and he mentioned the Liz is one of those to be changed to lessen it's stats because it pratically turns it into a B-29 2 years before the Americans made a B-29, after spending almost 2 billion dollars and with the massive US manufacturing and engineering base to support that type of effort while having little affect in other areas. If the Japanese did build the Liz, assuming it worked as a decent strategic bomber, it would have to be offset by losses elsewhere, as Japan didn't have the spare capacity. So in other words the Japanese get a marvelous new shiny weapon capable of reaching deep into the enemies rear areas.lightly defend and at no additional cost to the Japanese, now that is not historic. Did the Allies get additional fighter squadrons to balance against this new Japanese strategic weapon, or additional high altitude AAA? Where is the balance then, as you tip the scale in one direction shouldn't you counter-balance or at least attempt to do so?

It wasn't so much that the British had radar stations, it was that they linked them all to a central air defence HQ that could coordinate all the air defence efforts. This was a revolutionary concept at the time, and was kept secret from the Germans for some time.

[Canoerebel]

This imbalance might be significant because it occurs early in the war, when Japan already has marked advantages.

We all agree that Japan needs a substantial boost to make the game enjoyable for those playing that side. The game started that way and most mods have improved on that in a variety of ways. Japan is much stronger than in real life, as we all know and appreciate. A lot of those improvements are for early war capabilities (extra divisions in Scenario 2, extra ships and other stuff in John IIIs mods, reduced cargo capacities in some mods, and so on). There has been a trend (not universal, but fairly marked) that Japan is a juggernaut early game that can destroy the Allies, taking out China, and so on.

Strengthening Japan early game probably isn't necessary any longer, from a competition standpoint. It's in the late game that Japan may still need a boost in some ways.

Frontloading enhancements may well imbalance the game in weird ways that neither player foresees. Testing by playing will reveal those eventually, but it can make for some nail-biting moments for a player who discovers he bit off more than he can chew. An example of that might be discovering that enemy 4EB have a range of 25 hexes (or whatever), so that you have to provide far more coverage (CAP) than before.

We're still figuring balance issues so that it doesn't go too far one way or another.

Underlying that is the reluctance of many players to utilize the points system, which makes many of the changes unnecessary. If players wrap their head around the points system, they'll find that the game is indeed competitive into 1945, especially any game with PDU on. But many players don't like playing the game as it was designed to be played. Those of us that have adapated to the points system (some of us after a long time) have found that it adds a richness to the game that is superb.