Guadalcanal Garrison Aug 7, 1942

[jmolyson]

Dear Alfred and Spence (and others), I did not intend to offend you. If I didn't think WitP-AE was a great game, I wouldn't be spending so much time asking questions about it. I don't think the designers would have provided an Editor if they didn't expect that different users would use and modify the game for different interests.

There have been numerous play balance adjustments in this game, "game" being defined by Webster's as an activity engaged in for diversion or amusement. What's the "evidence"? Read through the Forum.

I used the word "cheat" to refer to play balance adjustments, not that someone was being dishonest in some way.

I don't think the players who post in this Forum look at WitP-AE as JUST a game. The discussions go into great detail on many levels. That interest extends into how the developers may have modified reality and why these modifications were necessary.

My personal interest in playing this game is to use it for a simulation (examination of a problem often not subject to direct experimentation by means of a simulating device) after reading one or more books about a topic covered in WitP-AE. I want to include the historical bad decisions in the orders of battle because I want to see how they play out. This is how the real IJN and USN used gaming and war games to model reality before WWII, and incidentally how it's still done in today's military.

Now I don't personally think the Japanese Navy needs to be shielded from the effects of their Victory Disease in regards to their lack of a real defense of Guadalcanal and Tulagi. In fact they had spread themselves way too thin at this point by gobbling up weak Allied garrisons all through the South Pacific. The Japanese Army still looked west towards China nd the USSR for additional conquests and left the IJN-sponsored effort to the east and south short on troops. By August 1942 the SNLF had exhausted much of its combat effectiveness and was never particularly robust in manpower. So they leave a major airfield site (Guadalcanal) and seaplane base (Tulagi) exposed to a counterattack they could not conceive of happening. In the event once-elite SNLF troops scurried off into the bush with their Korean laborers on Guadalcanal instead of bleeding the USMC landing force as they did on Tulagi.

So when I set up a scenario by copying a stock one into an empty slot, I place as far as I can the historic units in the historic places. I want units to perform the way they did historically. I want aircraft ranges and capabilities to be realistic. I want anti-submarine aircraft to have the anti-submarine weapons they really had, not land-attack bombs because "nobody cares". etc, etc, etc

I will continue to ask questions about units and troops because I want this game to model reality at some level, not because I think the designers and beta-testers are flawed because they find WitP-Ae more diverting or amusing by trying to play balance two opponents who were incredibly mismatched for one reason or another throughout WWII.


I get enough great feedback from other players to offset the snarky "it's only a GAME" comments I get from some of the "experts".

[jmolyson]

Thanks for this post. This is good info.

[jmolyson]

In the episode of "The Pacific" dealing with Battle of the Tenaru (aka Battle of the Ilu River or Battle of Alligator Creek), Marines find a folded U.S. flag in the rucksack of a Japanese soldier. A comment is made that "these must be the guys who took Guam." I don't know if that's just Hollywood dialog or an actual incident. Certainly Ichiki's men had been involved with overrunning several U.S. garrisons.

[jmolyson]

Was this radar anti-air or anti-ship oriented?

[jmolyson]

ORIGINAL: US87891

ORIGINAL: Brady
Interestingly though, no one on that list seams to be the personal responsible for the Radar

The 85th Communications Unit was responsible for construction and installation of the radar system. 4th Meteorological Unit was responsible for charting air currents for proper orientation of the airfield runway (The 51st Communications Unit had the same responsibilities for radar installation in the Aleutians). The 85th completed the installation and returned to Rabaul 2 August, which is why the system was not operational and did not detect the air activity on the morning of the 7th. The radar system was scheduled to become operational, along with the airfield, on 8 August.

sounds alot like the Pearl Harbor debacle.

[Hrafnagud]

It was an aircraft detection radar.

[Hrafnagud]

As far as I am aware the 28th Infantry Regiment was trained for arctic warfare and had seen some action in Manchukuo. I am not aware of them seeing any action in the Pacific prior to Guadalcanal.

[Brady]

What is or are the sources for the detailed breakdown of Japanese forces and activities listed above

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

In the episode of "The Pacific" dealing with Battle of the Tenaru (aka Battle of the Ilu River or Battle of Alligator Creek), Marines find a folded U.S. flag in the rucksack of a Japanese soldier. A comment is made that "these must be the guys who took Guam." I don't know if that's just Hollywood dialog or an actual incident. Certainly Ichiki's men had been involved with overrunning several U.S. garrisons.

If a US flag was found amongst the dead of Ichiki's force, it doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the Marine reports concerning the action. Just prior to Ichiki's assault, it was known from documents captured after Brush's ambush the day before that a sizable IJA unit had just arrived on Guadalcanal from Truk and had surprisingly accurate maps of the main US positions around the airfield. Just a few days after Ichiki's assault, it was known what IJA regiment had been involved, its strength, its leader's name and that the unit had combat experience (in China), had considerable amphibious training and been earmarked for the (aborted) Midway landing, had then gone to Guam (long after it had been captured in Dec '41) and had then sailed for Truk and then onto Guadalcanal. The Marine divisional and regimental records mention the use of captured documents (including diaries) and interrogation of three prisoners as the source of the information.

Although the Marines had all the information they needed to build this picture of Ichiki's force in a relatively short time, I'd suggest if they had also found a US flag on the body of one of Ichiki's dead, it should have been unusual enough that you would think someone would have noted it in one of the reports.

Doesn't mean it definitely never happened though. Hollywood doesn't make everything up.

[spence]

There are no bogus play balance cheats in AE.

What then do you call having Gen Kawaguchi and his 124th Regt/35 Brigade sitting at Tassaforonga on Aug 7th with 100% preparation?

Since the Kawaguchi Brigade didn't arrive at all until the end of August/beginning of Sept and the game's systems would likely make it next to impossible for the Japanese to establish a viable beachhead on Guadalcanal (only 2 hexes) if it wasn't there that would seem like a play balance thing to me.

[jmolyson]

I guess without Japanese fighters based at Lunga, they felt they could wait to the first contingent arrived on the airfield to activate the rasar.

[jmolyson]

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

In the episode of "The Pacific" dealing with Battle of the Tenaru (aka Battle of the Ilu River or Battle of Alligator Creek), Marines find a folded U.S. flag in the rucksack of a Japanese soldier. A comment is made that "these must be the guys who took Guam." I don't know if that's just Hollywood dialog or an actual incident. Certainly Ichiki's men had been involved with overrunning several U.S. garrisons.

If a US flag was found amongst the dead of Ichiki's force, it doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the Marine reports concerning the action. Just prior to Ichiki's assault, it was known from documents captured after Brush's ambush the day before that a sizable IJA unit had just arrived on Guadalcanal from Truk and had surprisingly accurate maps of the main US positions around the airfield. Just a few days after Ichiki's assault, it was known what IJA regiment had been involved, its strength, its leader's name and that the unit had combat experience (in China), had considerable amphibious training and been earmarked for the (aborted) Midway landing, had then gone to Guam (long after it had been captured in Dec '41) and had then sailed for Truk and then onto Guadalcanal. The Marine divisional and regimental records mention the use of captured documents (including diaries) and interrogation of three prisoners as the source of the information.

Although the Marines had all the information they needed to build this picture of Ichiki's force in a relatively short time, I'd suggest if they had also found a US flag on the body of one of Ichiki's dead, it should have been unusual enough that you would think someone would have noted it in one of the reports.

Doesn't mean it definitely never happened though. Hollywood doesn't make everything up.

True. The Pacific (at least the mini-series) doesn't list other than general sources. I haven't read the book.

[jmolyson]

ORIGINAL: spence

There are no bogus play balance cheats in AE.

What then do you call having Gen Kawaguchi and his 124th Regt/35 Brigade sitting at Tassaforonga on Aug 7th with 100% preparation?

Since the Kawaguchi Brigade didn't arrive at all until the end of August/beginning of Sept and the game's systems would likely make it next to impossible for the Japanese to establish a viable beachhead on Guadalcanal (only 2 hexes) if it wasn't there that would seem like a play balance thing to me.

Me too. That's ok if you want play balance.

When I run my modded scenario, all units are all corrected back to historical locations.

Tsugaru leads it rump task force carrying the scratched together troops from the 8th BF out of Rabaul and passed the American submarines placed in their historic patrol zones.

Misawa's cruisers move south to ruin RADM Turner's day and pass the submarine gauntlet on the way back the next morning.

The Bettys and Vals attack the Transport Force the same day.

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: Brady
What is or are the sources for the detailed breakdown of Japanese forces and activities listed above

The information I've posted comes mainly from Jersey's "Hell's Islands". In Appendix 2, it has a detailed OOB list of the Japanese ground forces in the Guadalcanal/Tulagi area up to the time of the US landing.

[Brady]

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: Brady
What is or are the sources for the detailed breakdown of Japanese forces and activities listed above

The information I've posted comes mainly from Jersey's "Hell's Islands". In Appendix 2, it has a detailed OOB list of the Japanese ground forces in the Guadalcanal/Tulagi area up to the time of the US landing.

Thanks, I ordered it...

[spence]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

In the episode of "The Pacific" dealing with Battle of the Tenaru (aka Battle of the Ilu River or Battle of Alligator Creek), Marines find a folded U.S. flag in the rucksack of a Japanese soldier. A comment is made that "these must be the guys who took Guam." I don't know if that's just Hollywood dialog or an actual incident. Certainly Ichiki's men had been involved with overrunning several U.S. garrisons.



If a US flag was found amongst the dead of Ichiki's force, it doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the Marine reports concerning the action. Just prior to Ichiki's assault, it was known from documents captured after Brush's ambush the day before that a sizable IJA unit had just arrived on Guadalcanal from Truk and had surprisingly accurate maps of the main US positions around the airfield. Just a few days after Ichiki's assault, it was known what IJA regiment had been involved, its strength, its leader's name and that the unit had combat experience (in China), had considerable amphibious training and been earmarked for the (aborted) Midway landing, had then gone to Guam (long after it had been captured in Dec '41) and had then sailed for Truk and then onto Guadalcanal. The Marine divisional and regimental records mention the use of captured documents (including diaries) and interrogation of three prisoners as the source of the information.

Although the Marines had all the information they needed to build this picture of Ichiki's force in a relatively short time, I'd suggest if they had also found a US flag on the body of one of Ichiki's dead, it should have been unusual enough that you would think someone would have noted it in one of the reports.

Doesn't mean it definitely never happened though. Hollywood doesn't make everything up.




True. The Pacific (at least the mini-series) doesn't list other than general sources. I haven't read the book.

I would not be in the least surprised if some Japanese soldier had picked up a souvenir while on Guam. Certainly there were many US soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who sold things they'd picked up along the way even if they'd never been any nearer to the actual fight than being on the same island as where it occurred. I suspect the average Japanese soldier was not that different than US soldiers (etc) as far as souvenirs were concerned.

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: Brady
Thanks, I ordered it...

It's the most detailed authored account I've read covering both the US and Japanese sides during the main period of the campaign. There's been some criticism of too much low-level detail distracting from the main narrative but to each their own.

Hope you find it useful.