LRCAP of an enemy base w/o friendly forces in hex.

[rustysi]

Before I start I'd like to say I'm looking for discussion here, so if you just want to go into attack mode please hold your responses.

This is something that's been bugging me for a while now. Is it a valid tactic or just an exploitation of the code?

The reason I ask is that there seems to be no countermeasure, and that the user is just trying to avoid the inherent and intended disadvantage of the 'escort' mission. That said 'escort' mission weakness is BTW historically accurate, just ask any nation in WWII that used it.

I'd like to add to the no 'countermeasure' statement above in order to be more specific, and possibly inform those who may not be quite sure as to what my meaning is in this instance. The tactic involves a player who wishes to bomb an enemy base, but doesn't wish to escort the bombing mission and incur the higher losses to that escort. They use the LRCAP as an 'ersatz' escort. By doing it this way it will only attack any friendly CAP if and when their bombers show up, and the CAP engages.

Now if I have CAP over the base, as implied above, it'll only look at his LRCAP until my A/C attempt to engage his bombers. At that time his LRCAP will engage my CAP thus reducing/eliminating their intended function. I have no way of driving off his fighters prior to the engagement, I can't even sweep my own base. OK, the option is available, but there will be no engagement. So there's no way that I know of to fight off this tactic.

OTOH, I wouldn't wish to disallow a needed function if say my opponent had ground and/or naval forces in the hex and wished to protect them using the LRCAP function.

BTW, I fully understand that this option is open to both players. I just don't wish to use something if its simply a limitation of the programming.

If I'm missing or just misunderstanding something here let me know.

I'm really wondering what the community thinks about how to handle this situation?

[Lokasenna]

LRCAP is not as reliable as escort at protecting your bombers. It has pros and cons.

Personally, I don't find it as efficacious as others make it out to be.

[Canoerebel]

I think Erik has done some versions of this in my game with him, with mixed results. I don't think I've ever tried it, but I may have (unintentionally, so that I don't recall). Erik might give you good feedback his ideas and the results he experienced. He'd be especially insightful as to whether he thought there was any ethical questions involved.

I don't think so, but I've only faced it a few times and it hasn't been a game changer. One countertactic would be to countersweep the hex from that airfield or nearby fields. My experience is that aircraft on LRCAP tire quickly and usually don't perform as well as they do on CAP. So I think that would be a likely counter.

Regarding escorts, I think its very pooly modeled in the game, at least for a Pacific Theater game. In the war, the Allies seldom faced lots of CAP by good pilots in high-quality fighters. Boy is that different in the game. Escorts (Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, Corsairs and especially Hellcats can get chewed alive. Hellcats basically have no chance in escort roles against good LBA fighters. I think that aspect of the game is far more worrisome than the LRCAP issue you refer to.

I'll bow out now, as folks with far more experience with this will chime in.

P.S. I know what you mean by fearing attack mode. It's like social media mentality has seeped into even this congregation of gentleman.

[geofflambert]

Your post is somewhat confusing, but if it is an enemy base, I find sweeping most effective at protecting my bomb missions. If I'm attacking a TF escort is the only option unless somebody's tried putting fighters in sweep mode with commander discretion on targets and that's worked. Anybody?

Of course when sweeping, the bombers might show up first so that doesn't work, but just as often escorts don't show up at all either. Just start sweeping the target one turn in advance of bombing if that's possible. Also, go high with the fighters and low with the bombers. If you have more than one squadron going, send one high and one low, and if the types are different send the more maneuverable squadron low. Fly your kites low, shoot your rockets high. For instance, FW-190's were lousy at lower altitudes and ME-109's much, much better.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

. For instance, FW-190's were lousy at lower altitudes and ME-109's much, much better.

You have it backwards. 190s performance fell off dramatically over 20,000 feet.

[DanSez]

I thought the use of LRCAP over an enemy base was the only way to interdict supply transports. I maybe mistaken as I haven't perfected that technique in my PBEM game.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: DanSez

I thought the use of LRCAP over an enemy base was the only way to interdict supply transports. I maybe mistaken as I haven't perfected that technique in my PBEM game.

You are correct, lrcap over an enemy based supplied by air is the only option to intercept those transports

[Macclan5]

I have used and will use LR CAP over an enemy base - however situational.

I do not feel its an exploit.

Firstly in my rookie and non scientific opinion - I think Pilot Fatigue levels climb far more rapidly than by sweep.

(perhaps other more experienced hands can confirm - but that is my perception)

Secondly interdiction of the above mentioned air lift supplies is a valid tactic. I cannot think of any practical examples just from memory - but I am reasonably certain I had read of this somewhere once.

I have not found it particularly effective; I have never observed it to be "significantly better" than (1) sweeping or (2) escorting bombers.

--

Because of the above I do not use it constantly - but as another weapon in my arsenal - occasionally where it makes sense - and given the assets I have at hand.

Off hand where I recall using it more than once or with purpose - the March down the coast towards Singapore by way of Alor Star etc. Lots of RAF and USA10th AF fighters -enough engineers to build forward bases - limited Carrier - seaborne fighter support till at least 44.

--

I rationalize this on the very basis of the Battle of the Philippine Sea; if I am not mistaken (memory - I am old) the CV and CVE fighter components the Saipan invasion force essentially LR Caped the landing strips of the Japanese bases shooting down and damaging additional dozens of Japanese aircraft as they landed or finished their attack runs.

Now I suppose one might argue this was actually a sweep with "good timing" - but its debatable either way in my opinion.

[witpqs]

I've never bothered with it as an addition/replacement/whatever for Escort or Sweep missions. I use it when I want to interdict known or suspected enemy air transport missions. I suppose it makes sense to use it when you are dropping paras too.

[RogerJNeilson]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: DanSez

I thought the use of LRCAP over an enemy base was the only way to interdict supply transports. I maybe mistaken as I haven't perfected that technique in my PBEM game.

You are correct, lrcap over an enemy based supplied by air is the only option to intercept those transports

I am sure I have stopped enemy transports with sweeps over the base they were operating to, I certainly shot down a number and my opponent stopped flying after that. It is ages ago so I cannot easily get the details. I operate on the basis that you can sweep at 4 or less hexes to be able to intercept, am sure there was a lengthy discussion about this.

Roger

[Dili]

Never detected that Roger.

[RogerJNeilson]

Well I did a little search of my ops reports and it certainly happened. At the time Tarawa was in Japanese hands and I have never done anything but sweep and this seems to indicate I stopped transports flying in or out. Its from way back in the game as we are now on Feb 45 and this was Oct 43.

I get reports when my transports are intercepted, but always it tells me the plane type, so these are def enemy planes.

Roger

[RogerJNeilson]

and another one, here the allied units doing the interception are identified.

[RogerJNeilson]

Don't know what's up with this screenshot... trying again.

[MakeeLearn]

searchpro.asp?phrase=LRCAP&author=&foru ... button=+OK+

[DanSez]

Always learning something new about this game.
Thanks

[Dili]

Thanks Roger will keep an eye on that.

[rustysi]

I know what you mean by fearing attack mode.

Its not so much 'fearing attack mode' as I just don't want to deal with it, especially when discussing a game. I for one don't wish to get my shorts in a bunch over something so mundane when there're major 'real' problems that get my dander up.

At any rate thanks for your response Canoerebel, always the gentleman.

I think Pilot Fatigue levels climb far more rapidly than by sweep.

This is my understanding as well.

I use it when I want to interdict known or suspected enemy air transport missions.

I get this, but as I said above, if you are doing this I have no way to counter your LRCAP. Thus it becomes a defacto, and more importantly unstoppable restriction to my transport efforts. If say my CAP and AAA would engage your LRCAP I for one would have no objection to said tactic, but since neither would happen I have my reservations regarding the use of this method.

I am sure I have stopped enemy transports with sweeps over the base they were operating to, I certainly shot down a number and my opponent stopped flying after that.

Thanks for the info Roger. That's exactly the thing I was looking for to support my objections to an opponent's use of the other tactic. If a sweep will work then there's no need for the LRCAP option.

MakeeLearn

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately my time today is limited. I will check it later.

Thanks all. Always appreciate good feedback.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I use it when I want to interdict known or suspected enemy air transport missions.

I get this, but as I said above, if you are doing this I have no way to counter your LRCAP. Thus it becomes a defacto, and more importantly unstoppable restriction to my transport efforts. If say my CAP and AAA would engage your LRCAP I for one would have no objection to said tactic, but since neither would happen I have my reservations regarding the use of this method.

Are you certain friendly fighters on Escort do not escort transports? We really can't say because we don't see combats involving transports.

If the hex you are flying transports into has enemy ground forces present then you can Sweep it and LRCAP it yourself.

If hte hex you are flying transports into has friendly forces present then you can LRCAP it.

[Lokasenna]

Escort mission doesn't help transports.

You can LRCAP over any hex, IIRC, friendly forces or enemy.