Update/Playtest Arctic Tsunami 2019 Version 5.0

[BeirutDude]

Further updated in the threat below this...

All,

I addressed a lot of items brought up in the AARs and made a lot of changes. I also updated the DB3000 to Version 475. So whenever you make changes you introduce new (and unique forms of error). Anyone wanting to play test would be appreciated.

Changes...
Added MiG-57
Added MiG-29SMTs to replace the deleted MiG-27s
Scrubbed most missions if player is human (some MPA missions left)
Updated magazines
Detached USS Arctic from Anzio SAG
Corrected F-35B assignments for QE2 (OOOOOOPS!)
Changed EMCON for both sides to Passive and then individual turned on radars for sites/units needing to be active (actual radars for example).

Enjoy.
Al

[ARCNA442]

I downloaded the scenario and started it from the NATO side, but haven't had time to play through it yet.

Still, I noticed the following:

1. All the airfield / ship magazines appear to have had their ordnance duplicated several times over, giving the player far more weapons than I think you intended.

2. The helicopters you have in the scenario are almost all old models that have been retired. The US cruiser and destroyers should all have the MH-60R (the SH-60B was retired in 2015 and the SH-60F in 2016), USNS Arctic should probably have the MH-60S (I think MSC still has some CH-46E, but not UH-46D), the Sea King AEW was retired this year with Merlin Crowsnest to replace it in 2020 (I guess you could say some prototypes were being tested), and the Lynx HMA.8 was retired in 2017 and replaced by the Wildcat HMA.2.

[BeirutDude]

1. All the airfield / ship magazines appear to have had their ordnance duplicated several times over, giving the player far more weapons than I think you intended.

So one would hope, but sadly this was my first serious attempt at a scenario (Hence update 5.0 [:D] ) so I was loading magazines by clicking on the loadouts to get the number I wanted rather than use the 0/10000 option. Now I know better. I did rebuild the NATO ship magazines for the next update

2. The helicopters you have in the scenario are almost all old models that have been retired. The US cruiser and destroyers should all have the MH-60R (the SH-60B was retired in 2015 and the SH-60F in 2016), USNS Arctic should probably have the MH-60S (I think MSC still has some CH-46E, but not UH-46D), the Sea King AEW was retired this year with Merlin Crowsnest to replace it in 2020 (I guess you could say some prototypes were being tested), and the Lynx HMA.8 was retired in 2017 and replaced by the Wildcat HMA.2.

Thank you for pointing this out.[&o] Fixed. [8D] [:)]

[ARCNA442]

Okay, I finally finished the scenario from the NATO side.

I'm going to offer some extensive criticisms here, but don't misunderstand, I do think it is an interesting scenario (otherwise I wouldn't have spent the time playing and analyzing it) and will probably replay it from the Russian side.

Technical issues first.

The biggest problem was the Sea Control Patrol and the Backfire ASuW Patrol. When a unit is assigned to these, the AI will plot a course to reach a random area in the patrol box without considering any enemies or geographical obstacles in the way. This led to both Russian surface groups becoming tangled up on the Norwegian coastline, and to many Backfires, Bears, and Mays flying right into the CAP I had set up in Northern Norway. For the surface groups this is an easy fix - just give them a manual course into the North Atlantic that avoids the coastline. The aircraft I don’t know how to resolve, although I’m not sure you really want to be sending patrol planes into the North Atlantic anyways since even the ones that reached the patrol box were all shot down and achieved nothing. Maybe instead assign them to defend the Russian surface groups (which could have used more ASW since I sank them all with submarines)?

The Backfire SEAD mission should also be reconsidered. While I’m not sure it can be classified as a true technical issue, it did result in a dozen unescorted strategic bombers flying straight into my air defenses with predictable results. Further, these bombers are irreplaceable strategic assets and while you may find nuclear weapons to be "uninteresting and frightening" they are a vital part of Russian strategy, so I doubt that Backfires would be released for anything but the most critical of missions. Perhaps consider replacing them with Su-34's?

I also noticed that Kuznetsov has some unarmed Su-25UTG training aircraft assigned to its AAW patrol - why?

The American destroyers also don't have any SM-2/SM-3/SM-6 missiles. While I know this is how they come in the database, it is not particularly realistic (you are also using the 2015 versions of the American ships instead of the 2018 ones).

Finally, I’m pretty sure you forgot to include a points penalty for losing an E-2 Sentry.

Now for the subjective issues.

The biggest problem for me was that there was no real mission for NATO as the side briefing only says to “protect and defend your assets” and don’t shoot first if possible. That’s not much to guide three days of operations. I deployed most of my forces to guard the GIUK Gap, but looking at the Russian missions afterwards that was completely pointless. It would also be nice if you had some pop up messages about what’s going on in the Baltic and having that influence the NATO player’s objectives.

This ties into my second main problem - the scenario is just too long. I killed all the Russian fighters and attack planes within the first day, and I sank all the Russian surface ships during the second day, leaving me with nothing to do for the third day. I would suggest either limiting the scenario to 24 hours (or even less) or adding an end trigger if a certain points total is reached or key Russian units are destroyed.

Finally, your points values are all over the place. I would suggest simplifying them to just basic categories (fighter / helicopter / destroyer / carrier / etc) and reducing the spread (sinking 1 Russian destroyer gives almost twice the points of shooting down every Su-57, making downing aircraft mostly a waste of time - was this intentional? If so, communicate it in the mission briefing).

[BeirutDude]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to try to look at this in detail on Tuesday or Wednesday (up to my butt in alligators until then [X(] ). Like I said this was my first "Big" scenario I attempted and thus I keep coming back to it to tweak it. So any advice/observations is/are appreciated. [&o]

[templar42]

Excited to have another go at this scenario! This is a very small point (I haven't actually pressed "start" yet, still reviewing my forces), but both of the Type 23 Frigates in the UK CVBG lack a towed array. It's true that only 8 of the 13 surviving ships were upgraded to the Type 2087 towed array sonar, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that one frigate in the group would have it, as the 2087 system is designed for blue water ASW against peer adversaries. I recommend changing one to the database 'F236 Montrose' (2014) type.

[BeirutDude]

Templar42, Thanks. Fixing this and ARCNA442's suggestions are my next goal!

[BeirutDude]

Thanks for the playtest and comments. About 80-90% of your comments and suggestions have been acted on. A few I need to consider how to do it.

[BeirutDude]

I recommend changing one to the database 'F236 Montrose' (2014) type.

Done

[BeirutDude]

Finally, your points values are all over the place. I would suggest simplifying them to just basic categories (fighter / helicopter / destroyer / carrier / etc) and reducing the spread (sinking 1 Russian destroyer gives almost twice the points of shooting down every Su-57, making downing aircraft mostly a waste of time - was this intentional? If so, communicate it in the mission briefing).

Well I'm going to disagree there. You might not like or agree with most of my assessments of point values but, personally, I think they are pretty valid. That said I put them in a spreadsheet to look them over more closely and the ones in red, at first glance, I'm going to take a closer look at...

Name Type VPs Notes
HMS Queen Elizabeth R08 Sunk CV 2500
Disaster! The Cruise Liner MV Lyubov Orlova has been Sunk! Civilian Cruise Liner 1500 Prestige - Civilian losses - High Value unit
HMS Trenchant (S91) Sunk SSN 1500
USS Newport News SSN-750 Sunk SSN 1500 Prestige points added
USS San Juan SSN-751 Sunk SSN 1500 Prestige points added
CV Admiral Kuznetsov Sunk! CV 1000
BCGN Admiral Nakhimov Sunk BCGN 750 Prestige
BCGN Petr Velikiy Sunk BCGN 750 Prestige
USS Anzio CG-68 Sunk CG 750
SSK Ulstein (S302) Sunk SSK 750 Prestige Points (Home team morale loss)
SSK Uredd (S305) Sunk SSK 750 Prestige Points (Home team morale loss)
CG Marshal Ustinov Sunk CG 600
USS Oscar Austin DDG-79 Sunk DDG 600
USS Truxtun DDG-103 Sunk DDG 600
DDG Admiral Ushakov Sunk DDG 500
DDG Gremyashchiy Sunk DDG 500
DDG Severomorsk Sunk DDG 500
DDG Vice Admiral Kulakov Sunk DDG 500
HMS Defender (D-36) Sunk DDG 500
HMS Duncan (D37) Destroyed DDG 500
USS Mahan DDG-72 Sunk DDG 500
USS Winston S. Churchill DDG 81 Sunk DDG 500
HMS Ambush (S120) Sunk SSN 500
HMS St Albans (F83) Sunk FF 400
Hamburg (F220) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Kent (F78) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Westminister (F237) Sunk FFG 400
HNLMS De Ruyter (F804) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Montrose (F 236) sunk FFG 400
SSN B-276 Kostroma Sunk SSN 400
SSN B-414 Daniil Moskovsky Sunk SSN 400
SSN K-328 Leopard Sunk SSN 400
SSN K-336 Pskov Sunk SSN 400
SSK Kilo Class Sunk SSK 300
USNS Big Horn T-AO-198 Sunk AO 250 Stores Ship
Skjold Class (P960 ) FFL Sunk PCFL 250
SSV Viktor Leonov Sunk SSV 250
SSV Yury Ivanov Sunk SSV 250
USNS Arctic T-AO-8 Sunk AO 200 Stores Ship
NATO Underground Ammo Bunker Destroyed Facility 200
NATO Runway Destroyed Facility 150
AO Academician Pashin Sunk AO 100
M/V Nikolay Chiker Sunk Civilian Tug 100 To tow carrier Prestige points
NATO AMMO Bunker Destroyed Facility 100
PCFG Nanuchka Sunk PCFG 100
AN/FPS-110 Air Search Radar Radar 100
AN/FPS-6A HF Radar Radar 100
NATO 750K Liter AvGas Bunker Destroyed Facility 75 No penalty for loss in game terms
Coastal ACSR Radar Destroyed Radar 75
A-50U Mainstay AEW 50
Sentry E-3G AEW Destroyed AEW 50
Tu-142MR Bear J Destroyed C3I 50 Command and Control!
Merchant Vessel (Russian M/V) Sunk Civilian 50
NATO 400K Liter AvGas Bunker Destroyed Facility 50 No penalty for loss in game terms
F-35(A/B) Lightning II [F-35B] Destroyed Multirole 50 Stealth Prestige
Merlin Crowsnest AEW Helio Destroyed AEW 40
T-50 PAK-FA Destroyed Fighter 40 Stealth Prestige
Tu-160 Destroyed Attack Bomber 30
MiG 35 Foxglove has been destroyed Fighter 30 Stealth Prestige
MiG-29SMT Fulcrum C Destroyed Multirole 30
Tu-22M-3M Destroyed Attack Bomber 25
MiG-27M Flogger J has been destroyed Multirole 25
MiG-29K Fulcrum D Destroyed Fighter 20
Typhoon FGR.4 Destroyed Fighter 20
F-16AM Falcon MLU Destroyed Multirole 20
F-16BM Falcon MLU Destroyed Multirole 20
SU-24MR has been shot down Multirole 20
MH-60R Seahawk ASW Destroyed ASW 15
P-8A Poseidon Destroyed ASW MPA 15
Su-24M2 Fencer D Destroyed Multirole 15
Tornado GR.4A Destroyed Multirole 15
Merlin HM.2 ASW Destroyed ASW 10
NH90 NFH ASW Destroyed ASW 10
Wildcat HMA.2 [AW.159] ASW Destroyed ASW 10
P-3C Orion Update III Destroyed ASW MPA 10
IL-38N May Destroyed ASW MPA 10
Tu-142MZ Bear F Destroyed ASW MPA 10
NATO AvGas Tank Farm Destroyed Facility 10 No penalty for loss in game terms
MiG-31BM Destroyed Multirole 10
Su-25UTG Frogfoot B Destroyed Multirole 10
SU-33 Destroyed Multirole 10
KC-135R Stratotanker Destroyed Tanker 10
Ka-27M Helix A Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27PL Helix A Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27PS Helix D Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-25Ts Hormone Destroyed ASW 5
MPA Dash-8-300 Destroyed ASW MPA (sort of - Iceland) 5
Sa.332L1 Super Puma Destroyed MPA (Iceland) 5
UH-46D Sea Knight Destroyed Utility 5 Removed

[BeirutDude]

Now sorted by type (A to Z) first and then by point value (Largest to smallest)

Name Type VPs Notes
A-50U Mainstay AEW 50
Sentry E-3G AEW Destroyed AEW 50
Merlin Crowsnest AEW Helio Destroyed AEW 40
USNS Big Horn T-AO-198 Sunk AO 250 Stores Ship
USNS Arctic T-AO-8 Sunk AO 200 Stores Ship
AO Academician Pashin Sunk AO 100
MH-60R Seahawk ASW Destroyed ASW 15
Merlin HM.2 ASW Destroyed ASW 10
NH90 NFH ASW Destroyed ASW 10
Wildcat HMA.2 [AW.159] ASW Destroyed ASW 10
Ka-27M Helix A Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27PL Helix A Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27PS Helix D Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-25Ts Hormone Destroyed ASW 5
P-8A Poseidon Destroyed ASW MPA 15
P-3C Orion Update III Destroyed ASW MPA 10
IL-38N May Destroyed ASW MPA 10
Tu-142MZ Bear F Destroyed ASW MPA 10
MPA Dash-8-300 Destroyed ASW MPA (sort of - Iceland) 5
Tu-160 Destroyed Attack Bomber 30
Tu-22M-3M Destroyed Attack Bomber 25
BCGN Admiral Nakhimov Sunk BCGN 750 Prestige
BCGN Petr Velikiy Sunk BCGN 750 Prestige
Tu-142MR Bear J Destroyed C3I 50 Command and Control!
USS Anzio CG-68 Sunk CG 750
CG Marshal Ustinov Sunk CG 600
Merchant Vessel (Russian M/V) Sunk Civilian 50
Disaster! The Cruise Liner MV Lyubov Orlova has been Sunk! Civilian Cruise Liner 1500 Prestige - Civilian losses - High Value unit
M/V Nikolay Chiker Sunk Civilian Tug 100 To tow carrier Prestige points
HMS Queen Elizabeth R08 Sunk CV 2500
CV Admiral Kuznetsov Sunk! CV 1000
USS Oscar Austin DDG-79 Sunk DDG 600
USS Truxtun DDG-103 Sunk DDG 600
DDG Admiral Ushakov Sunk DDG 500
DDG Gremyashchiy Sunk DDG 500
DDG Severomorsk Sunk DDG 500
DDG Vice Admiral Kulakov Sunk DDG 500
HMS Defender (D-36) Sunk DDG 500
HMS Duncan (D37) Destroyed DDG 500
USS Mahan DDG-72 Sunk DDG 500
USS Winston S. Churchill DDG 81 Sunk DDG 500
NATO Underground Ammo Bunker Destroyed Facility 200
NATO Runway Destroyed Facility 150
NATO AMMO Bunker Destroyed Facility 100
NATO 750K Liter AvGas Bunker Destroyed Facility 75 No penalty for loss in game terms
NATO 400K Liter AvGas Bunker Destroyed Facility 50 No penalty for loss in game terms
NATO AvGas Tank Farm Destroyed Facility 10 No penalty for loss in game terms
HMS St Albans (F83) Sunk FF 400
Hamburg (F220) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Kent (F78) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Westminister (F237) Sunk FFG 400
HNLMS De Ruyter (F804) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Montrose (F 236) sunk FFG 400
T-50 PAK-FA Destroyed Fighter 40 Stealth Prestige
MiG 35 Foxglove has been destroyed Fighter 30 Stealth Prestige
MiG-29K Fulcrum D Destroyed Fighter 20
Typhoon FGR.4 Destroyed Fighter 20
Sa.332L1 Super Puma Destroyed MPA (Iceland) 5
F-35(A/B) Lightning II [F-35B] Destroyed Multirole 50 Stealth Prestige
MiG-29SMT Fulcrum C Destroyed Multirole 30
MiG-27M Flogger J has been destroyed Multirole 25
F-16AM Falcon MLU Destroyed Multirole 20
F-16BM Falcon MLU Destroyed Multirole 20
SU-24MR has been shot down Multirole 20
Su-24M2 Fencer D Destroyed Multirole 15
Tornado GR.4A Destroyed Multirole 15
MiG-31BM Destroyed Multirole 10
Su-25UTG Frogfoot B Destroyed Multirole 10
SU-33 Destroyed Multirole 10
PCFG Nanuchka Sunk PCFG 100
Skjold Class (P960 ) FFL Sunk PCFL 250
AN/FPS-110 Air Search Radar Radar 100
AN/FPS-6A HF Radar Radar 100
Coastal ACSR Radar Destroyed Radar 75
SSK Ulstein (S302) Sunk SSK 750 Prestige Points (Home team morale loss)
SSK Uredd (S305) Sunk SSK 750 Prestige Points (Home team morale loss)
SSK Kilo Class Sunk SSK 300
HMS Trenchant (S91) Sunk SSN 1500
USS Newport News SSN-750 Sunk SSN 1500 Prestige points added
USS San Juan SSN-751 Sunk SSN 1500 Prestige points added
HMS Ambush (S120) Sunk SSN 500
SSN B-276 Kostroma Sunk SSN 400
SSN B-414 Daniil Moskovsky Sunk SSN 400
SSN K-328 Leopard Sunk SSN 400
SSN K-336 Pskov Sunk SSN 400
SSV Viktor Leonov Sunk SSV 250
SSV Yury Ivanov Sunk SSV 250
KC-135R Stratotanker Destroyed Tanker 10
UH-46D Sea Knight Destroyed Utility 5 Removed

[ARCNA442]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude


Well I'm going to disagree there. You might not like or agree with most of my assessments of point values but, personally, I think they are pretty valid. That said I put them in a spreadsheet to look them over more closely and the ones in red, at first glance, I'm going to take a closer look at...

Point values are always very subjective so I'm not going to disagree too strenuously with how you award them. But here are my thoughts.

The values you assigned effective makes sinking ships the only thing that really matters. I think this sidelines the half of the scenario that revolves around the air battle over Norway and defending/killing the radar network (which you list as a priority for the Russian side). It also (and this was very true during my play through) incentives you to sink the entire Russian fleet even though the mission briefing says to limit escalation.

I also believe that you severely undervalue supporting assets and older aircraft. For instance, a P-8 Poseidon is only worth 15 points - less than 1/3 of an F-35 - even though it costs more than an F-35 and has a crew of 9 rather than 1. I also doubt that losing an F-35 would be considered 2.5 times worse than losing an F-16 - in fact, the morale value of losing two-man F-16B's could easily be worse than losing one-man F-35's.

Finally, I dislike scenarios that have the Western side automatically lose points in 1:1 trades of equivalent units (or in this case 4:1 - Su-33 vs F-35). While this is quite common in CMANO scenarios, I do not believe it is realistic for a full-scale war against a near-peer enemy.

However, points are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.

I started the scenario from the Russian side and although I've only played a bit so far, I think the Russia side is the more interesting one.

[BeirutDude]

Point values are always very subjective so I'm not going to disagree too strenuously with how you award them. But here are my thoughts.

Thank you! An honest discussion is greatly appreciated and of course, yes they are subjective but at some point as designer it has to be my vision (with good advice).

The values you assigned effective makes sinking ships the only thing that really matters.

Sorry the sinking of a $500M to $1B dollar warship with 250-400 crewmembers is more significant than the shooting down of a $25M aircraft with 1-2 crew. The aircraft are more numerous and American DDG is 600 points and a squadron of TU-22MS totals to 360 points and a squadron of T-50 PAK-FA is exactly 600 points. I think viewed in that light it makes more sense.

I think this sidelines the half of the scenario that revolves around the air battle over Norway and defending/killing the radar network (which you list as a priority for the Russian side).

Took out the points for radars, ammo and runways as the loss of use in game terms should be the real penalty for NATO. Fuel is left in as a VP factor as there is no negative impact in game turns for loosing fuel facilities.

It also (and this was very true during my play through) incentives you to sink the entire Russian fleet even though the mission briefing says to limit escalation.

This is interesting to me. I always look at those things in the game terms as a convenient fiction. Yes, in the real world we know the commanders would have limit escalation orders (and the orders I wrote are meant to be written as I think the CinC would issue them) but in reality in Command we're fighting it out. [:D]

I also believe that you severely undervalue supporting assets and older aircraft. For instance, a P-8 Poseidon is only worth 15 points - less than 1/3 of an F-35 - even though it costs more than an F-35 and has a crew of 9 rather than 1. I also doubt that losing an F-35 would be considered 2.5 times worse than losing an F-16 - in fact, the morale value of losing two-man F-16B's could easily be worse than losing one-man F-35's.

I agree and disagree here. Loosing a P-8 in a hot war with lots of losses, and an aircraft which most Americans know nothing about, would pale in our media and to national leadership to the loss of the vaunted (and extremely expensive), stealth F-35! So in Military terms we might agree the P-8 is a significant loss but with major warships being destroyed and thousands dying in the Baltics I think its the loss of high value units such as the stealth/fifth gen aircraft would be felt more in Washington and by the public. Here we will have to agree to disagree.

Finally, I dislike scenarios that have the Western side automatically lose points in 1:1 trades of equivalent units (or in this case 4:1 - Su-33 vs F-35). While this is quite common in CMANO scenarios, I do not believe it is realistic for a full-scale war against a near-peer enemy.

So this is one were I just can't win! [X(] Others accuse me of being in love with the S-400 system! [:D] So more seriously, I have adjusted the numbers below to reflect closer values for some of the Russian High Value units but in the case of the older systems history has proved there is just that much difference. I don't believe the Admiral Kuznetsov is the peer of the Queen Elizabeth and I think you will be hard pressed to find a naval analyst who thinks she is, yet as a prestigious vessel for Russia I tweaked her to 4/5s the value of the QE (2,000 vs. 2,500 VPs)! Look at the new numbers below and I think you will find NATO units tweaked down a bit and high prestige/value Russians have been tweaked up. BTW, the two Russian BCGNs were (and remain) the highest value non carrier surface units in terms of point value, AS THEY SHOULD BE (capitalized for emphasis not shouting [8D] [:D] ).

However, points are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.

Well look at the weaks below, I think you'll like some and hate others...

I started the scenario from the Russian side and although I've only played a bit so far, I think the Russia side is the more interesting one.

It is an interesting situation for them!

Name Type VPs Notes
A-50U Mainstay AEW 50
AN/FPS-110 Air Search Radar Radar 0 Removed
AN/FPS-6A HF Radar Radar 0 Removed
AO Academician Pashin Sunk AO 100
BCGN Admiral Nakhimov Sunk BCGN 1500 Prestige and updated vessel
BCGN Petr Velikiy Sunk BCGN 1000 Prestige
CG Marshal Ustinov Sunk CG 600
Coastal ACSR Radar Destroyed Radar 0 Removed
CV Admiral Kuznetsov Sunk! CV 2000
DDG Admiral Ushakov Sunk DDG 500
DDG Gremyashchiy Sunk DDG 500
DDG Severomorsk Sunk DDG 500
DDG Vice Admiral Kulakov Sunk DDG 500
Disaster! The Cruise Liner MV Lyubov Orlova has been Sunk! Civilian Cruise Liner 1500 Prestige - Civilian losses - High Value unit
F-16AM Falcon MLU Destroyed Multirole 20
F-16BM Falcon MLU Destroyed Multirole 20
F-35(A/B) Lightning II [F-35B] Destroyed Multirole 50 Stealth Prestige
Hamburg (F220) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Ambush (S120) Sunk SSN 500
HMS Defender (D-36) Sunk DDG 500
HMS Duncan (D37) Destroyed DDG 500
HMS Kent (F78) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Montrose (F 236) sunk FFG 400
HMS Queen Elizabeth R08 Sunk CV 2500
HMS St Albans (F83) Sunk FFG 400
HMS Trenchant (S91) Sunk SSN 1000 Prestige points added
HMS Westminister (F237) Sunk FFG 400
HNLMS De Ruyter (F804) Sunk FFG 400
IL-38N May Destroyed ASW MPA 10
Ka-25Ts Hormone Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27M Helix A Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27PL Helix A Destroyed ASW 5
Ka-27PS Helix D Destroyed ASW 5
KC-135R Stratotanker Destroyed Tanker 10
M/V Nikolay Chiker Sunk Civilian Tug 100 To tow carrier Prestige points
Merchant Vessel (Russian M/V) Sunk Civilian 50
Merlin Crowsnest AEW Helio Destroyed AEW 40
Merlin HM.2 ASW Destroyed ASW 10
MH-60R Seahawk ASW Destroyed ASW 10
MH-60S Knighthawk Destroyed ASW & Utility 10
MiG 35 Foxglove has been destroyed Fighter 0 Removed
MiG-27M Flogger J has been destroyed Multirole 25
MiG-29K Fulcrum D Destroyed Fighter 30
MiG-29SMT Fulcrum C Destroyed Multirole 30
MiG-31BM Destroyed Multirole 25
MPA Dash-8-300 Destroyed ASW MPA (sort of - Iceland) 5
NATO 400K Liter AvGas Bunker Destroyed Facility 40 No penalty for loss in game terms
NATO 750K Liter AvGas Bunker Destroyed Facility 75 No penalty for loss in game terms
NATO AMMO Bunker Destroyed Facility 0 Removed
NATO AvGas Tank Farm Destroyed Facility 50 No penalty for loss in game terms
NATO Runway Destroyed Facility 0 Removed
NATO Underground Ammo Bunker Destroyed Facility 0 Removed
NH90 NFH ASW Destroyed ASW 10
P-3C Orion Update III Destroyed ASW MPA 10
P-8A Poseidon Destroyed ASW MPA 15
PCFG Nanuchka Sunk PCFG 100
Sa.332L1 Super Puma Destroyed MPA (Iceland) 5
Sentry E-3G AEW Destroyed AEW 50
Skjold Class (P960 ) FFL Sunk PCFL 150
SSK Kilo Class Sunk SSK 300
SSK Ulstein (S302) Sunk SSK 400 Prestige Points (Home team morale loss)
SSK Uredd (S305) Sunk SSK 400 Prestige Points (Home team morale loss)
SSN B-276 Kostroma Sunk SSN 400
SSN B-414 Daniil Moskovsky Sunk SSN 400
SSN K-328 Leopard Sunk SSN 400
SSN K-336 Pskov Sunk SSN 400
SSV Viktor Leonov Sunk SSV 250
SSV Yury Ivanov Sunk SSV 250
Su-24M2 Fencer D Destroyed Multirole 15
SU-24MR has been shot down Multirole 20
Su-25UTG Frogfoot B Destroyed Multirole 10
SU-33 Destroyed Multirole 10
T-50 PAK-FA Destroyed Fighter 50 Stealth Prestige
Tornado GR.4A Destroyed Multirole 15
Tu-142MR Bear J Destroyed C3I 50 Command and Control!
Tu-142MZ Bear F Destroyed ASW MPA 10
Tu-160 Destroyed Attack Bomber 50
Tu-22M-3M Destroyed Attack Bomber 30
Typhoon FGR.4 Destroyed Fighter 30
UH-46D Sea Knight Destroyed Utility 0 Removed
USNS Arctic T-AO-8 Sunk AO 150 Stores Ship
USNS Big Horn T-AO-198 Sunk AO 150 Stores Ship
USS Anzio CG-68 Sunk CG 750
USS Mahan DDG-72 Sunk DDG 500
USS Newport News SSN-750 Sunk SSN 1000 Prestige points added
USS Oscar Austin DDG-79 Sunk DDG 600
USS San Juan SSN-751 Sunk SSN 1000 Prestige points added
USS Truxtun DDG-103 Sunk DDG 600
USS Winston S. Churchill DDG 81 Sunk DDG 600
Wildcat HMA.2 [AW.159] ASW Destroyed ASW 10

So I really appreciate your help and advice. Hopefully you see I put thought into your comments and considered your points. I think when you look at the attached Version 5.1 update you will find about 90 percent of your points addressed and acted upon, even if we don't totally agree on the point assignments you have definitely helped to make this a better scenario!

[BeirutDude]

Updated to Version 5.1 based on feedback. Just to make sure people can find it...

[ARCNA442]

I finished the scenario from the Russia side (I started it before you uploaded 5.1 so some of this might no longer be relevant), and think you may have given them too many long range missiles.

Within hours of the scenario's start, the AI sank my cruise liner, giving me 1500 points - you might want to see if there's a way to prevent this.

Norway I dealt with almost entirely using Backfires and Blackjacks with standoff missiles. My opening salvo of Kitchen at the runways of the four northern airfields grounded the majority of the Norwegian forces within 2 hours of the scenario beginning. This was followed by around the clock missile attacks for the duration of the scenario, ultimately destroying every ground radar and a dozen aircraft without ever leaving Russian airspace. I'm not sure why, but the NATO NASAMS batteries never fired a shot, making these attacks even more effective than I thought they would be.

At sea, I formed every warship (I sent the all merchants and auxiliaries home) into a large dispersed formation, dedicated every MPA and helo to an ASW patrol around them, and sailed forward. They were ambushed by the Skjolds north of Norway (those things are incredibly sneaky), losing an Udaloy that was acting as an advance picket (20nm ahead of the carrier with radars and jammers active), but easily killed every sub that came close. After the fleet rounded Norway I sent out some Su-57's as scouts, found the NATO ships, and easily wiped them out with a massive long range missile attack.

The only unexpected problem I noted was that the low clouds (5-7k feet) prevent dropping KAB-500 bombs (min release 10k feet), ending my plan to bomb the bunkers on the Russian border with MiG-29K's.

Looking at the missions for the NATO AI, I would suggest examining the AAW and ASuW patrols for the QE airwing - if I understand them correctly they will only engage targets within 75nm of the carrier, which seems rather close when all of the Russian ships have 80nm+ missiles and even the MiG-29K's have 60nm missiles.

[templar42]

I found that the MiG-31s escorting the first Fencer strike were operating under Weapons Tight (at least they didn't fire on my F-16s until I launched AIM-120s at 25 miles). Given that it's a hot war I think they should be Weapons Free - otherwise it's too easy to kill them by exploiting their need to positively identify a target.

Loved the second strike package - I was congratulating myself on annihilating the first one but came unstuck when the PAK-FAs started firing off the AA-13 (or whatever the super-missile is they carry) at my F-35s.

Edit: I just looked at your points post and I notice that HMS Trenchant is worth twice the points of HMS Ambush. I think it should probably be the other way round as Ambush is the new and highly prestigious Astute class whereas Trenchant is a Cold War era SSN.

[BeirutDude]

ARCNA442 and Templar42 will look into your comments. I have some ideas.

Looking at the missions for the NATO AI, I would suggest examining the AAW and ASuW patrols for the QE airwing - if I understand them correctly they will only engage targets within 75nm of the carrier, which seems rather close when all of the Russian ships have 80nm+ missiles and even the MiG-29K's have 60nm missiles.

This one where a Command designer can't win. Pop them off at max range someone screams, hold them close and someone else doesn't like it. There are entire threads on the proper ranges for AAMs and SAMs.

[BeirutDude]

I finished the scenario from the Russia side (I started it before you uploaded 5.1 so some of this might no longer be relevant), and think you may have given them too many long range missiles.

Within hours of the scenario's start, the AI sank my cruise liner, giving me 1500 points - you might want to see if there's a way to prevent this.

Thinking on it there is no reason to give the Russians VPs for the liner, I removed them. As to missiles I have a bad habit of overloading the magazines. My problem is I never know how many missiles might be at a base so I over estimate.

Looking at the missions for the NATO AI, I would suggest examining the AAW and ASuW patrols for the QE airwing - if I understand them correctly they will only engage targets within 75nm of the carrier, which seems rather close when all of the Russian ships have 80nm+ missiles and even the MiG-29K's have 60nm missiles.

Done

[BeirutDude]

I found that the MiG-31s escorting the first Fencer strike were operating under Weapons Tight (at least they didn't fire on my F-16s until I launched AIM-120s at 25 miles). Given that it's a hot war I think they should be Weapons Free - otherwise it's too easy to kill them by exploiting their need to positively identify a target.

Loved the second strike package - I was congratulating myself on annihilating the first one but came unstuck when the PAK-FAs started firing off the AA-13 (or whatever the super-missile is they carry) at my F-35s.

Edit: I just looked at your points post and I notice that HMS Trenchant is worth twice the points of HMS Ambush. I think it should probably be the other way round as Ambush is the new and highly prestigious Astute class whereas Trenchant is a Cold War era SSN.

Both fixed.

[BeirutDude]

I think these changes are small enough to re-submit the scenario (update it). Thanks for your help!!!!!!!!!! [8D] [&o]