Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Armored Brigade is a real-time tactical wargame, focusing on realism and playability
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altipueri
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Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by altipueri »

I know some people like to show off their reflexes rushing around clicking and blowing stuff up as soon as it appears. But they miss the dread you get when you've just sent some pixel troops off across an open field and they get spotted.

Sun Tzu wrote: "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
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wodin
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by wodin »

Well great thing is we have the option to play how we like. A big bonus in my opinion.
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JiminyJickers
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by JiminyJickers »

Well the rounds are just timed pauses. You can still issue orders at any time, you just can't manually pause the game.
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altipueri
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by altipueri »

The AI performs better using rounds rather than continuous play with pauses.

I'm enjoying this game even though I only touch the surface of what it can do. I overrode my rule to never buy a new game on release but this time I am happy and I hope there will be patches and improvements soon.
Lowlaner2012
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Lowlaner2012 »

Really?

Will have to try the turns option tonight...

Cheers
mekanopsis
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by mekanopsis »

Sun Tzu wrote: "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

Which is why the Fulda Gap theatre is so cool; the war never even happened partly because the war-gaming of operational art like AirLand Battle and tactics based on superior tech was so dissuasive to the WP.

Re clicky-pointy play style; the command delay frustrates all but minor thinking ahead surely
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varangy
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by varangy »

ORIGINAL: altipueri

The AI performs better using rounds rather than continuous play with pauses.

From where did you get this? I think it has absolutely no effect on the AI.
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kevinkins
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by kevinkins »

I started with 3 min rounds for a week and now on continuous play. Don't see much of a difference. However, the observation that the AI plays better within rounds is interesting. Could the developer comment on that?

Thanks

Kevin
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
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altipueri
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by altipueri »

I think he did on another thread on AI.


Quote from Veitikka: "

A couple of recommendations: Do not give orders to individual units, but always to formations. Use the 'round' mode, to prevent the player from pausing the game all the time. "


Actually this was in a thread you contributed to.

Phoenix100
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Mmm. But he didn't say the AI plays better with rounds, did he? I took his comments, actually, as a way of handicapping the player.
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altipueri
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by altipueri »

Blimey, it's a computer game forum not a court of law.

If the player is handicapped it gives the AI a better chance against the player.
Phoenix100
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Lol. Well, I am a lawyer, so, yes...

But it's an interesting fact if playing in rounds actually boosts the AI, as a matter of coding, and not very interesting if all it does is handicaps the player. After all, there are many ways I could handicap my play to mitigate a poor AI opponent - I could abstain from using the los tool, for example, I could choose force strengths one third of the AI force strength, I could play in 10 minute rounds and abstain from making any commands at all during the command intervals, etc etc....any random choice will do it.

So it's a good question to Vietikka, I think - on what basis he recommends playing in rounds?

Another good question to Vietikka is why there is a comprehensive ability to command individual units in a non-multiplayer game, if he thinks to do so renders the AI a poor opponent? A nice answer would be that future development will render the AI a decent opponent, even if the player doesn't handicap himself in this rather random way. Another good answer would be - because there will be multiplayer in future.
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Veitikka
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Veitikka »

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

So it's a good question to Vietikka, I think - on what basis he recommends playing in rounds?

Like I said, it prevents the player from pausing the game all the time, so he can't stop the time and start micromanaging his units to find the positions with a perfect LOS for every unit. I think this game mode can encourage using formation movement. Another thing that I personally like is that if you have the player character option enabled and any moment there can come a situation where you life is at stakes, and you can't pause the game, that will make you more cautious.

Another good question to Vietikka is why there is a comprehensive ability to command individual units in a non-multiplayer game, if he thinks to do so renders the AI a poor opponent? A nice answer would be that future development will render the AI a decent opponent, even if the player doesn't handicap himself in this rather random way. Another good answer would be - because there will be multiplayer in future.

The design philosophy has always been to give the player lots of options. Many different styles to play, the freedom of setting up any battle anywhere, the open data format, maps etc. It's up to the player how he wants to use the features, even if they might make a scenario unplayable. Of course there's the risk that the players indeed make the game unplayable, and then say the game is broken, because they don't know how it works. I don't think that can really be avoided in an open system like this. Of course I could use my time to implement more restrictions, instead of giving the responsibility to the players.

There have been some very good posts on the forum about how the players abuse the game system to win, instead of using the system's strengths to produce realistic scenarios.
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Phoenix100
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Thanks Vietikka. If you command at formation level the game is indeed more challenging! That doesn't necessarilly mean the AI behaviour is any more realistic, but it's very useful to know how we should go about commanding in order to level the playing field vis a vis the AI. So, thanks.

That said, I do hope the AI will get progressively more complex. Specifically, I would like to see more recon, and not just throwing units across open ground or down roads, or breaking cover en masse into obvious kill zones. More cautious to detect threats, then more crafty in approaching them. That sort of thing.
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CCIP-subsim
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by CCIP-subsim »

I have to say that after trying the 3-minute rounds, I definitely do find that I prefer it as far as actual gameplay challenge goes [:)] It adds a bit of an element of tension, and also gives you a point of reference in terms of time passing (something I sometimes totally miss when playing real time!) I might even up it to 5 minutes - I mean, it's not an issue of control since you can still give orders as the game is playing, and a 5-minute check-in seems pretty reasonable by me. Mind you, this is while trying relatively small scenarios so far.
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Veitikka
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Veitikka »

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

That said, I do hope the AI will get progressively more complex. Specifically, I would like to see more recon, and not just throwing units across open ground or down roads, or breaking cover en masse into obvious kill zones. More cautious to detect threats, then more crafty in approaching them. That sort of thing.

We will see how this will develop. A more sophisticated approach is needed than throwing me a military field manual and saying 'make the AI work like that'.

I think if early next year we will get the 'seek cover' SOP option and will be able to remove the one-unit-per-cell limit then that's a good start.
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CCIP-subsim
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by CCIP-subsim »

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

That said, I do hope the AI will get progressively more complex. Specifically, I would like to see more recon, and not just throwing units across open ground or down roads, or breaking cover en masse into obvious kill zones. More cautious to detect threats, then more crafty in approaching them. That sort of thing.

We will see how this will develop. A more sophisticated approach is needed than throwing me a military field manual and saying 'make the AI work like that'.

I think if early next year we will get the 'seek cover' SOP option and will be able to remove the one-unit-per-cell limit then that's a good start.

Both of those sound intriguing! I think the 'seek cover' would definitely help the AI, while the stacking limit could be interesting as well (though I'd encourage a more nuanced approach to it based on size - so that the number of units in the same cell slows down movement, and units still avoid 'overstacking')
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demyansk
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by demyansk »

I have 1 minute rounds now and I can't figure how to turn this off and maybe make longer rounds or continuous?
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kevinkins
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by kevinkins »

The Mission Options screen right before you start the generated scenario has a section called Round Length. You can adjust it there if I recall.

Kevin
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Phoenix100
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RE: Is this game not best played in 3 minute rounds?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Well, it's all very interesting looking for ways to handicap the player, but it's not the the thing that needs doing. There are lots of great things about this game, but so far I would think that the AI performance isn't one of them, and it's not an MP game, so the AI performance is crucial. As I said above, I would hope for improvements and hope the game has a long development life to facilitate that. As for throwing Vietikka studios a military manual and saying - 'make it do that' - as suggested above by Vietikka - well, it doesn't even have to be that sophisticated. At present the worst thing I see the AI doing is throwing units across open spaces en masse. And yes, no other game (except Command Ops, when it's working well, and the scale there makes it easier) does good attacking AI, and, yes, this behaviour is all too familiar, sadly, from less 'serious' games. Picture below. All I would ask is would that happen in real life? Really? I'm no military expert, so I don't know. Maybe soviet doctrine of this period still included the 'human wave' type attack. If I were the AI in this case, though, I would be approaching much more cautiously, using covered lines of approach. I'm afraid seeing this kind of thing is quite off-putting. Maybe others are not so bothered, in which case I'd be interested to know why.



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