T-80 and elite divisions

[gbem]

curious shouldnt the T-80 be an elite tank assigned to guards divisions (like the 4th guards tank division) and therefore have higher training and morale?

[kevinkins]

I would think so. When generating a battle, the default for the US is 80 training and 75 moral. While for the USSR it's 75/65. During the last step in making a battle, you can set the values where you think they should be. Those values are global to the entire faction OOB however. So I would make sure the entire USSR side is worthy of the upgrade.

Kevin

[22sec]

Just because a division had a Guards designation did not mean it received anymore training or kept conscripts any longer than any other category A division.

[kevinkins]

But you would think they would not have let conscripts handle their most modern tank. But I agree, the Guards designation itself should not cause the player to boost training and moral numbers unless they have hard data to support it.

[22sec]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

But you would think they would not have let conscripts handle their most modern tank. But I agree, the Guards designation itself should not cause the player to boost training and moral numbers unless they have hard data to support it.

That’s all the Soviet army had was conscripts...

[kevinkins]

There are draftees and there are draftees with higher aptitude. They would have assigned the best to the newest tank. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think they would have knowing assigned the worst or assigned young men at random to the T-80. The Soviets had the tradition of filtering their people based on ability and pigeoning them into what they thought was best for the country. I don't think it would be crazy to take a T-80 platoon from 65/65 to 70/70.

Kevin

[22sec]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

There are draftees and there are draftees with higher aptitude. They would have assigned the best to the newest tank. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think they would have knowing assigned the worst or assigned young men at random to the T-80. The Soviets had the tradition of filtering their people based on ability and pigeoning them into what they thought was best for the country. I don't think it would be crazy to take a T-80 platoon from 65/65 to 70/70.

Kevin

I don't recall ever reading of any indication that they sorted tankers. I think a better justification for bumping training would be for all GFSG units.

[exsonic01]

Zaloga once pointed out the difference between NATO and PACT tanker's quality back in 1989, mentioned about the logistic support for training, criteria of training and training condition, average salary and pension system for NCOs. I don't have abook at my hand now, but IIRC, he used example of unrealistic training criteria for PACT tankers (PACT tankers supposed to kill TOW jeep with 5~7 coaxial MG), and also mentioned an episode when Marshal S. Akhromeyev visited Fort Hood, comparing salary and quality of life for tanker NCOs. As far as remember, he also pointed out that single NATO tank used 100~200 training round per a year, while PACT used 20 for normal units, and 50 for elite units per a year. There were also comments about training system like MILES, and the limitation of PACT (Soviet) tankers due to 2 year limitation of conscript tankers, which makes them relatively less trained units compared to NATO crews.

IIRC, his overall conclusion was, NATO have very good advantage over degree and support of training, and overall support for crews. However he mentioned that Soviet army will be changed, commented that they clearly know about the issue of crew quality and training quality. Unfortunately, USSR falls and overall upgrade for Russian tankers couldn't realized during 1990s, and that caused Battle of Grozny.

Please check Zaloga, Steven J., Tank War-Central Front: NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, Osprey Publishing, 1989

[gbem]

yes the guards tank army still had less overall training than elite or possibly even standard NATO forces... still the T-80 should have a higher training value than the the rest of the soviet army as it is an elite tank... similar treatment was given to the BMD series as they were operated by the elite VDV...

[Veitikka]

In the database editor it's possible to give individual formations morale/training boost/penalty.

[kevinkins]

Wow, that's good to know. So the base training/moral for all but the T80s (or any formation) in a scenario could be 70/60 but the T80s alone could be separately set in the DB to say 80/70? In other words. the DB values override the global scenario values. I suppose a designer would need to specify formation values in the briefing.

Kevin

[gbem]

Yeah noticed that when i saw the BMD1 and the green highlighted training... put the T80s training slightly lower than american training but kept morale at a similar level

[Mark Florio]

I can attest to that. We trained constantly on gunnery and tactics. Night fighting too and simulators. I was in the field 200 days my first year in 3/63AR in 1988. We knew that we had to be much better to stand a chance.

[blackcloud6]

ORIGINAL: Mark Florio

I can attest to that. We trained constantly on gunnery and tactics. Night fighting too and simulators. I was in the field 200 days my first year in 3/63AR in 1988. We knew that we had to be much better to stand a chance.

And when you were not in the field, your butt was in the UCOFT. We had sessions that ran the UCOFT 24/7. Those were the days, eh?