Balance discussion

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MarauderPL
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by MarauderPL »

Or we could change the +1 to +0,75 [:D]
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xhoel
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by xhoel »

ORIGINAL: chaos45

xhoel---a german panzer division can be 20+ CV in 1941...that's one division. Often all you need to do is have infantry break the soviet fortified front line and the that one or at most 2 panzer divisions in a stack can hasty attack most other soviet units out of the way.

Against a Super Lvov opening its very hard to build any depth into soviet defenses in 1941 as you just don't have the forces available. In your current game you did not pull off the super Lvov so the soviets were in abit better shape unit and manpower wise thus offering up better/more realistic resistance...and even then you are doing just fine, you still have some time until mud and then will have a couple turn of frost after mud.

Also a 20 CV German division esp if it is able to get into a town or woods...is virtually invincible to soviet forces in 1941...thus once u break the soviet lines u can park panzer units and the soviet play in effect cannot move them ever. Doesn't even need to be 20 CV...anything over about 10 CV esp if it gets a terrain bonus is very hard for the soviets to move in 1941 without a game bonus.

As to game tweaks it seems most ppl are more or less agreed with my initial suggestions- which is odd as many attacks as I seem to get. I will repeat my suggestions yet again:
-Fix exp gain- is for both sides
-fix soviet digging
-fix the AA guns...they are much to good---kinda an auto include in the fix list lol
-Scenario tweak to limit super lvov move- Im not talking stop it completely my suggestion was to allow the 1 soviet tank grp to not get encircled and to put a garrison in Odessa- so tweaks not massive changes.
-I also do feel soviet manpower generation is alittle weak at the moment, one fix I suggested was just add a slightly bigger starting manpower pool instead of an entire game manpower buff--this seems to be playing out more and more in games where the soviets have more guns then men basically the entire war....which it really shouldnt work out that way. This was a later suggestion while waiting on the patch team to decide what they are doing.

These fixes IMO wont break the current game at all I think would give a more balanced and playable game to both sides.


Here you again changed your statement from ''German Panzer Divisions take no losses" to: ''It can happen but to only one division" which is not the case. And when I prove that, you will jump to another argument and we will keep going down the rabbit hole something that I have no desire to do.

And no, against a Soviet player that defends in depth using the infantry to break the first line is nowhere close to getting the job done.

I am all for the changes too as long as they mean that the game rules are implemented correctly and no gamey stuff is happening. What people should keep in mind is that the game goes on till 1945 so both sides should prepare for a long fight and should not expect an I Win button. I see little reason as to why Soviet forces should be able to move a strong German Panzer Division defending in a forest or village in 1941. With that being said my opponent has forced German infantry divisions (not cut off) defending in clear terrain to retreat in more than one occasion during our game.

I will disagree on the AA guns, I think that they at least do something right now, as in the past patches you would think they were shooting cotton candy out of their guns and couldn't hit a target if it was 2 meters in front of them.

The Super Lvov move can be forbidden as a house rule and it only affects a very small percentage of players as most Axis players will not be able to pull that off anyways. So its fine with me if it gets tweaked. In either way I personally don't care about it as I see little reason to do it.

If the Soviets get more manpower (I am all for it), then armaments production should be lowered a bit too. Manpower was not a problem till late 44-45 but it seems to me that the fact the Soviets can afford to lose 25% of their ARM points and not have any problems in the late war is a bit of a stretch.
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SparkleyTits
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by SparkleyTits »

20CV is often only seen at the early game unless Soviets and Axis are both defensive in their playstyle and there will be options to degrade it's elements without +1 with foresight in clear and light woods

If you do one or two draining attacks to lessen the ammo which can really damage a panzers CV potential and damage some AFV in the process then go in for the win to turn all of those into AFV into losses you'll soon see those panzers turn into 10-15CV packs

Granted this is circumstancial as it's not always possible to throw away your own manpower, supplies and CV willy nilly every turn unless you are in control to a degree but in an even game you can bide your time by keeping an eye on panzers that are starting to fray under sustained fights of their own accord and then hit that panzer for more efficient ratios

Stelteck
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by Stelteck »

The CV value of panzer division actually increase during war. Germany have also some completely op support units, like with tigers that you can add to further increase the battle value.

You can have CV 40 in 1943 for some elite units [:D]
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SparkleyTits
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by SparkleyTits »

Sorry yes you're definitely right!

By 20CV at the beginning I meant in the context of 41 as that is the danger year for balance we were talking about [:D]
I didn't even think to mention later in the years tbh so definitely a hefty chunk of oversight and a lack fo clarify from me there
I have seen some monster panzers in yours and Stef game and I have felt the heavy sting of the monsterous SS panzers myself on my way to Berlin!

Cheers [:D]
SparkleyTits
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by SparkleyTits »

Trying to degrade panzers in 43+ is just not efficiently plausible from when I have tried even if you use weather and damaged elements to your advantage it's just never worth the cost

In 42 you can do it still but it's more down to Axis mistakes over Soviet opportunities
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GamesaurusRex
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by GamesaurusRex »

Current Grand Campaign game playing Russian side versus very experienced German Player...

Initial game setting tweaks:
Russian Attack +1 / Mild Winter
German Morale 102% German AP set 110%
Russian Morale 110% Russian AP set 120%
House Rule denying Lvov Pocket

Turn 27 November, 1941... Germans possess everything west of a line from (Lake Oneida - Kalinin - Moskow - Ryazan - Boguchar - Rostov) including full control of named cities.
People who say the Germans cannot take Leningrad/Moskow/Rostov in 1941 simply do not know what they are talking about. If the German player is experienced, this is a cake walk.
"Real Life" is a game... THIS is war !
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STEF78
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by STEF78 »

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

.../...
German Morale 102% .../...
Russian Morale 110% .../...
Turn 27 November, 1941... Germans possess everything west of a line from (Lake Oneida - Kalinin - Moskow - Ryazan - Boguchar - Rostov) including full control of named cities.
People who say the Germans cannot take Leningrad/Moskow/Rostov in 1941 simply do not know what they are talking about. If the German player is experienced, this is a cake walk.
Some years ago, we had a fierce debate about morale >100%.

The testers (including some german fanboys) concluded it was a huge advantage for the german player.

I would never accept such a setting as russian and would consider it as unfair as german... something like a cakewalk.
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56ajax
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by 56ajax »

It is a long time since I have played T1 and whilst having read the forums on how to defend as the Soviet I am pessimistic on my survival. Whether by accident or design a number of my army HQs and the NW Front were pocketed. (I am impressed). Thus I cannot set up an appropriate command structure for the defense of the motherland. Whilst I can use the relocate button this typically moves the unit 1 or 2 hexes into friendly territory, and if my opponent is capable I cannot see why these HQs may not be re pocketed on t2 etc. I could use Northern Front for my defense of Leningrad but it is frozen. And perhaps all this is academic as my opponent has done an excellent Super Lvov pocket and thus I do not have too many units to spare anyway.

Now there are a number of frozen units waiting activation but I suspect they will be pocketed on T2 as the Axis moves so quickly, so there is no point in them being in the game other than historical accuracy.

Now most of the discussion on Balance has centered on Combat, Morale, Experience but perhaps other functions need to be addressed.

The game has gone well past frozen units, and if they must be kept, perhaps they can be unfrozen through the expenditure of Admin Points.

Not sure what to do about my pocketed Front but perhaps its location needs to be changed.

Cheers and Good Night.



Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne
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thedoctorking
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by thedoctorking »

I'm still in favor of a limited free deployment option. I'd be happy to start another game with this option (using the editor) if somebody wants to try it out.

Proposed rules:
No unit can be moved more than 5 hexes from its starting position in the standard setup
Every border hex has to be in a Soviet ZOC
At least half of Soviet divisions that are unlocked on turn 1 must deploy within 5 hexes of the border, and the remainder must be within 10 hexes of the border
Soviet air groups may not be redeployed to different air bases, and bases cannot be more than 5 hexes from their starting positions in the standard setup

Also, for discussion:
No redeployment of units from their original HQ's
mouse707
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by mouse707 »


[/quote]
I'm still in favor of a limited free deployment option

I think that even just some randomness in the initial soviet units' positions can be sufficient to prevent super Lvov pockets and their friends in turn 1. Experimented german players know exactly the position of each russian unit and how to exploit that. Maybe they even play with a 2nd computer opened on the russian T1.

If rear units are not exactly at the same place each game, it could be sufficient to prevent too optimized german T1
MarauderPL
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by MarauderPL »

Its not a problem to air recon all the soviet positions right now, it won't be in the future. And what if a random positioning screws the Soviet player even more? Like allowing a reliable Minsk capture T1? Or herding additional units in the South?
I can imagine some comments in the forums then [:D]
Shalkai
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by Shalkai »

I'm only a casual/intermediate player of WitE, although I have many decades of experience with various Eastern Front games. After scanning through this thread, and comparing past games over my few years of playing different versions of WitE, a couple things pop out at me:
1. Playing Russians has gotten harder over last 2-3 years. I see this in my own GC game (playing against myself). Soviet units are slower to arrive, slower to dig in, and more fragile. EXP changes seem to be the biggest cause of second and third issues, from what I've read? OK, something to fix.
2. Playing Germans is hard, til you master a couple things - railhead building, blitzkrieg and pocketing, effective use of HQBU. Once that is learned, a 'good' German player has the upper hand in '41.
3. Past that, there are 'great' German players. Super-Lvov, port-hopping, whatever.
4. A game where a very skilled player on one side can't be countered with anything done by the other side needs some fixing.

I don't know if WitE is at that level. It sounds like we are at (in 41 GC):
beginner German vs AI = medium. Beginner Russian vs AI = easy.
beginner German PVP = hard. beginner Russian PVP = hard.
skilled German = easy. skilled Russian = hard, or very hard.

Balancing a game, especially one as complex as this, is a nightmare. It still needs to be done, and the devs still do it (/salute for all your hard work, Matrix!). I've seen a lot of exploits used and talked about in these forums, then removed from the game.

Another complementary thing to do is to handicap games between particular players. Simple house rules can do a lot, and the best of them (if simple) can be patched in later on. No Super-Lvov for example.

So, back to thoughts on balance discussion of things that can be coded. The +1 combat bonus option comes to mind as something to beef up inside the game - add a slider for how many turns it goes. Really strong German player? Add more months of +1.
Weather could be another area easy to add options without too much programming. Really strong German player? Add an extra turn of Mud at some random point in Fall 41 (could use in either Random or Historical weather). That'll wreak havoc with even well laid plans. Or add a 'Nasty Random Weather' option to the start menu.
More difficult, but probably historically justifiable, is putting in some movement point sinks/debuffs. General thought - moving into a hex that is very far away from starting friendly lines (6 hexes? 10?) has a chance of costing an unplanned extra MP. This would simulate bad maps, minor but important bridge blown up, local cadres putting up a roadblock that takes a half-day to clear...things like that. That would make things much harder for good Axis players, but wouldn't handicap beginners to the same extent - they don't drive as far per turn.

SparkleyTits
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by SparkleyTits »

I would say starting from beginners the game favours Soviets as they allow more mistakes which both sides will have alot of so it gives the Soviets more of a buffer to "learn by fire" and come out in better shape but honestly these games can go either way as everybody finds their footing [:)]

Interdimate games seem to be dependant on playstyles clashing aswell as mistakes more so than other skill levels and they can seem to go anyway causalities winds blow tbh
For example a Soviet who has not had any bad experiencs with brawling will favour that playstyle and will want to fight forward and goes up against an Axis who happens to be a good attack pather will achieve many pockets and the game will be easy for Axis but on the opposite side if you have an Axis who is great at logistics but not so good at attack pathing yet comes up against a Soviet who has a good grasp on retreat paths and understands the capabilities of Germans MP then that will find the game coming to a rather quick German stall
These examples of course compound the more extreme scales as there is everything in between too which aren't as clear cut but that is the best stab I can give of my opinion

At higher level games one critical mistakes means that under the right circumstances it's over for all intent and purposes and a lot of the mistakes considered critical that can happen early in th way are FAR easier for the Soviets to catch themselves experiencing comparative to what the Axis can mess up in a similar regard as it's almost never going to happen where the Axis make a mistake big enough in 41 to destroy them for the rest of the war etc
This doesn't mean Axis are OP as honestly although others will say otherwise they simply aren't but they are definitely advantageous at high level as the Soviets have to defend from 300 angles to stop crumbling in either one or a series of quick knock out blows that can end the game and that is absolutely bloody hard going and that is also while having to defend from 300 more blows that will either slowly or quickly eat away at you (definitely not easy)

That leads to the problem of the absolute herculean task of balancing out higher level games without completely messing up a massive percentage of the playerbase heavily in Soviet favour as only a very small percentage are technically high skill level etc
More difficult, but probably historically justifiable, is putting in some movement point sinks/debuffs. General thought - moving into a hex that is very far away from starting friendly lines (6 hexes? 10?) has a chance of costing an unplanned extra MP. This would simulate bad maps, minor but important bridge blown up, local cadres putting up a roadblock that takes a half-day to clear...things like that. That would make things much harder for good Axis players, but wouldn't handicap beginners to the same extent - they don't drive as far per turn.

I love these kinds of ideas where diminishing returns force more dynamic choice, risk and reward over a more binary options of choices like "I've opened the way do I go left or right now" which is boring imo comparatively, great idea man!
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Nada
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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56ajax
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by 56ajax »

Against a very good Axis player the game can be lost in the first few turns. The Axis can now move so quickly that the Soviets must hold the Axis using existing units as of 22nd June, plus those in the reinforcements schedule that come fully formed or with adequate experience or morale, until the Mud comes.

Those units that are rebuilt will not be of much value in this period. (Fixing the Experience 'defect' may alleviate this).

If the Axis creates large pockets it is not a question of whether they can be re-opened but whether any units can be permanently rescued; usually none.

Thus I have found that the current post T1 Soviet Army is too small and the numbers don't substantially increase until after Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov have fallen.

For consideration

1. Fix Experience
2. Have an option to unfreeze units on T1
3. Increase Soviet Admin points to allow for the manual creation of units, or decrease the cost of creation (not Forts), or introduce a new unit like a Peoples Militia Brigade that can be created at low cost and auto disbands on 1st Dec.
4. Increase manpower

Some of these can be done via the editor so perhaps we need a Balanced Scenario.

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne
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thedoctorking
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by thedoctorking »

Is there any way to modify Soviet manpower production in the game options? If their manpower could be set to 125% or so, that would be about right.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Nada
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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56ajax
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by 56ajax »

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Is there any way to modify Soviet manpower production in the game options? If their manpower could be set to 125% or so, that would be about right.
Not that I can see. You can increase the rate at which units get replacements, increase rail capacity, increase Admin points but not manpower.

Thats why a Balanced Scenario may be the way to go.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne
MarauderPL
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RE: Balance discussion

Post by MarauderPL »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Come on, someone is really trying to keep the Soviet player down or is this a cruel joke.

You are doing well enough, Stalin is not afraid of losing Moscow, he fears for his datcha (summer house) on the Black Sea coast ;)
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