A few acres of snow, SparkleyTits (Axis) Stef78 (Russia), ST welcome

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

As usual, when I play WITE and do an AAR, I take a lot of pictures and make some comments about it.

But this time it will be shorter. I won't post all these pictures.

As russian I suffered encirclements as usual.

Like this one on the turn 5, nothing but normal even if axis progress is very fast.



But turn 6 proved to be horrible.

In the south, axis swept my rearguard preventing advance past the Dniepr, swept another line of defence 60 miles east, and advanced another 80 miles... all that in a week. Why not? it's ambitious but in open ground.


But I really feel bad with what happened in the north. Axis infantry swept a 30 deep line of defence and then german Pzd advanced 80 miles through swamps and forest in an area almost without roads....



I sent the turn back but the game is over.

Hats off to Sparkley Tits who is a kind person and a master of logistics.

But this game was really desesperating and not fun to play.

Maybe it's my last WITE Campaign. [:(]

I am sorry to hear this Stef . I was so looking forward to a nice AAR to read for the coming year. But as Chaos45 and myself have been ringing the alarm bell pretty loudly about this. That once a German understands the underpinnings of supply along with the Strategic decisions to go along with it the Soviets are absolutely powerless to do anything about it, even with the Soviet +1 attack. This is why I have moved on from this game that I have loved for so long. I will finish what I have in WITE 1.0, but I have moved back to playing the Germans for testing in WITE 2.0.

[SparkleyTits]

Yes the turn after the picture shown I was able to push past Vyshyny Volochek and would of been able to advance nicely again on turn 9 again without some hefty reinforcements from Stef in the area which should not be possible at this stage in the game

However it was an unusual circumstance of a lightly garrisoned area of attack with 12 panzers and 2 infantry armies in the area with only a couple of hexes being needed to shift (most of them with hasties) to open the way entirely and it took from turn 4 of setting up, saving fuel and waiting for a mistake to do.
I have never seen it in any of my games or another AAR before that I remember (One reason why stats on games would be a great asset so we could all see and agree where changes were needed instead of falling pray to perhaps only remembering the rare and dramatic instances)
So I would definitely say it is a very unusual circumstance that will rarely happen and might not be the best example of average happenings and absolute changes needed in the game.

Though still I definitely agree that those kind of advances that happened after this picture in the AAR are darn silly tbh so it would be good if there was some way to limit the operational range of Axis supply lines with panzers currently in especially in AGN somehow it as one of these mistakes effectively means the game turns into an unassailable steam roller of ground taken which is no fun for anybody [:(]

Perhaps lowering the amount of rail hexes able to be repaired in AGN from something lower than 6 per turn or something along those lines if anyone has any good suggestions with more thought involved?
That might only change how the higher end of players played and would let most people to still play with their normal playstyles

Some EXP changes would help a lot too so that fallback fort lines could be made that take more than a hasty attack to remove at places without the best/good Soviet troops (Which are few and far between at the moment with 1 exp per turn) infantry and holes can be plugged when breached which is rather difficult at the moment with such low exp across the board for the Soviets so if you can open the floodgates/backlines atm as Axis it seems too difficult to stop currently

[SparkleyTits]

Some kind of exponential growth or a rubber band on the supply range the further from a railhead a unit is might be a good idea but I have no idea if the engine can even do that?

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Its like a lot of us have been saying against axis players that understand the logistics system the game is currently almost impossible for the Soviets in 1941.

Sorry to see the game end so quickly, but many of the issues have been brought up and still no answer on a new patch to address any of them.

Under the current patch, IMO, if the Soviets are still in the game by T12 it is a 'technical' Soviet win.[:D]

The only thing to stop the Axis is house rules.

[STEF78]

Thec curent patch isn't the only cause of this situation

Since the game was released, the level of the players has considerably increased. A 2018 medium player would have been a top Notch player in 2012.

And now there are some "I win" buttons available if you spend enough time to read the forum.


Some ideas to prevent such 1941 raiding:

- change the rule for flipping the hexes. Crossing an hex and moving 100 miles away shouldn't be enough to flip an hex. It shoud be at least crossed 2 weeks. but opponent rail would be still destroyed .

- drasticaly reduce the supply if far from railhead

- improve the cost for rail repair in the baltic states to 2 per hex and no more than 3 hexes repaired in a week

- damage more AFV when moving more than XX miles a week

[chaos45]

I agree with some of what you say STEF78....but this raid with no risks is mainly due to the absolutely pathetic strength of the soviet army now in 1941.

Patch after patch of nerfs to Soviet CV and replacements have now made the Soviet army pretty much incapable of any real offensive threat in 1941 until blizzard. Even its defensive strength is extremely anemic if the German player does the super Lvov combined with decent management of logistics.

Lets not even talk about the CV strength of German panzer units staying nigh untouchable until blizzard.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: chaos45


Lets not even talk about the CV strength of German panzer units staying nigh untouchable until blizzard.

Even in Blizzard Panzers and Moto are pretty darn rough. Almost impossible to move. I have to do a million soak off attacks losing thousands and thousands of men to run them to low supply to be able to even touch them let alone make them retreat a hex in a Blizzard. You will see it in BrianG's game coming up and I even have a full blown blizzard

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: STEF78


- damage more AFV when moving more than XX miles a week

Damage HELL. They need to LOSE more tanks.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

absolutely pathetic strength of the soviet army now in 1941.

One of the main thing that affects soviet CV in June-July 1941 is major reduction TOE of Rifle divisions in one of the patches.
With start of the war TOE of Rifle division starts use wartime shtats. Latest pre-war wartime shats for these units are 04/400-04/416 (5 April,1941).
What is difference in the game atm. Simple example about 45mm guns in these units. By shtats the divisions had 54 45mm guns, in the game TOE there are only half of it - 27.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

.../...

Patch after patch of nerfs to Soviet CV and replacements have now made the Soviet army pretty much incapable of any real offensive threat in 1941 until blizzard. Even its defensive strength is extremely anemic if the German player does the super Lvov combined with decent management of logistics.

.../...

I didn't track all the changes in recent patches about russian 1941's strength...

Can you detail please

[chaos45]

STEF- basically many patches ago they did a decently drastic soviet replacement rate cut, was towards the end of my game vs Pelton I argued against it but they did it anyway. Which is one of the reasons you now see the Soviets often having extreme manpower problems almost the entire game...historically the Soviets did have manpower issues but so did the Germans...right now the Germans do not have historical manpower issues, so this is in effect a long term reduction in Soviet CV while German CV stays inflated.

The thing is games take so long to play out it has taken a long time for this issue to finally be realized.

In the recent patch they also increased combat losses for both sides....supposedly...however you see the increase to soviets was much more massive due to low EXP/Morale...couple this with the above manpower replacement reduction and you can easily see a compounding issue for the soviet player.

You used to get divisional shells back without a delay, now you have the random delay in getting soviet units back...since its random this can drastically affect how quickly the soviet army starts to rebuild esp if the German player delays even 1-2 turns in destroying an early pocket--again a soviet CV reduction.

Removed Sapper regiments and reducing Sapper squads in soviet divisions a big CV cut as well as additional CV cut from much slower entrenchment rate.

Im not sure if it was a recent patch or just been made worse by the random delay in shell divisions---but starting/random Morale/EXP for returned divisions and only 1 exp gain per turn...this is a massively huge reduction in overall CV until the end of 1942 or beyond. The change to EXP to 1 per turn was another change I argued against long ago that they put in anyway....as by rules it should be 2-3 per turn without combat if they are in the rear on refit.

The exp thing is huge because it also affects long term corps exp when you make tank/mech/cav corps and replacement units as you lose them in 1942 even...so is a massive long term soviet CV nerf.

This exp thing also compounds since lower exp/morale units take huge losses in combat thus additionally compounding on the higher losses this last patch....and well you already dont have enough men to fill up these new units by late summer/fall of 1941.

You could say the removal of 100k+ soviet manpower from HQ disbands in a previous patch also drastically crunched early game soviet manpower and again made soviet CV much weaker in early 1941.

So its not just one issue that has caused the virtual collapse of 1941/1942 soviet CV its alot of compounding changes over many patches of basically soviet nerfs.

[STEF78]

thanks for the reply

I didn't notice the +1 exp per turn, it's effectively hard for the soviets.
i also noticed that my units were digging far slower that what I reminded from my previous games. another change?

[chaos45]

they removed sapper regiments and also reduced the amount of sapper/engineer capable squads in soviet divisions- thus slowing digging in speed.

As well digging in was apparently more tied to exp/morale....so even lower soviet exp/morale due to only gaining 1 per turn means soviet units cant even dig in effectively until they hit 40+ exp.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

they removed sapper regiments

It's ok, because these "sapper regiments" in the game are actually Engineer regiments. These units did not formed in 1941(with rare exception). Also actually RKKA had shortage of various engineer/sapper specialists for new units or for replacement during first months. Most of them was used for sapper battalions of Rifle divisions. So forming others "sapper" units like sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps or "sapper" regiments in 1941 is fantasy.
There is other an issue. Like I said before about TOE reduction of Rifle divisions in June-July. Similar reduction affects sapper squads in various units(Rifle divisions,sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps, probably some others units too).

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: chaos45

they removed sapper regiments

It's ok, because these "sapper regiments" in the game are actually Engineer regiments. These units did not formed in 1941(with rare exception). Also actually RKKA had shortage of various engineer/sapper specialists for new units or for replacement during first months. Most of them was used for sapper battalions of Rifle divisions. So forming others "sapper" units like sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps or "sapper" regiments in 1941 is fantasy.
There is other an issue. Like I said before about TOE reduction of Rifle divisions in June-July. Similar reduction affects sapper squads in various units(Rifle divisions,sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps, probably some others units too).

The TOE reduction in 41 has been in place all along. The bottom line is this, "with or without Sappers the Soviets just dont have the stopping power"

[chaos45]

Dreamslayer--historical or not the issue is the game had been more or less balanced around the soviet player having access to the CV and digging in capability these units allowed.

So when they were just removed and reduced it was a massive reduction in overall Soviet Army CV especially in 1941 timeframe.

It is doubly so a huge game balance issue when coupled up with/compounding with all the other Soviet Army Nerfs/reduction in capabilities that have been stacked on over the patches.

Historical accuracy is important to a degree but is also a game that needs to be balanced when changes are needed. If soviets at 40/45 Morale and Exp with all the sappers made for an accurate game maybe with the sappers being removed the soviet 1941 morale/exp needs to go to 45/50 instead....that's the issue they have just kept reducing soviet CV regardless of game balance issues.

Historically the Soviet army was a counterattack threat to the germans in 1941, historically the German army was understrength and especially in the motorized/panzer divisions as the campaign went on...and historically these issues greatly reduced german combat power/ in game terms CV....you see almost none of this in the game right now.

As well the German supply/fuel situation is pretty well fantasy and has been for a long time patch time frame wise. You can look at older matches and see that german supply as easily doubled or better over the years...or soviet CV has just become so pathetic the germans are now advancing almost twice as fast in the middle part of the 41 campaign.

[Dreamslayer]

I think if we really want to see this game with balance we need to be more active in the topic about it.
For now we only have stacking issues and some a "cosmetic" corrections.

[chaos45]

I have been very outspoken about the issues in the game of late, as has HLYA.

There is a lot of history in the older pages of the AAR threads. You can look back at older games and see there is a significant difference in German advance ability and Soviet CV ability between older patches/editions of the game and the last 1-2 years of the game.

IMO many of the newer German players struggle to understand how the logistics system works, which then leads them to complain that the Soviets are to good....which has then led the patch team to just pile on nerfs to the soviet side and allow any German player that understands the game and priority objectives to just run over the now super weak soviets.

We have been seeing this time and again when anyone with some skill as a German player plays even knowledgeable soviet players.

I would say even some longer time mainly German players have a tendency to complain just to make the game easier for the German side regardless of how unplayable it makes the game for anyone attempting to play the soviets.

[Dreamslayer]

There is Balance discussion thread, we can continue there and keep that topic on top.

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: chaos45
I would say even some longer time mainly German players have a tendency to complain just to make the game easier for the German side regardless of how unplayable it makes the game for anyone attempting to play the soviets.

That's just plain silly talk now Chaos reign it in a bit at some point bud eh? [8|]

Can we please for the love of god just stop going over the same exhaustively rehashed points in every single thread in existence when Axis wins a game or pockets 6 divisions (exagerated I know but if I don't laugh at this point I might end up crying my soul out of my eyeballs soon enough [:D])
We can all happily restart the process from the beginning in the next update but at least with some new ideas as any kind of change on the subject at this point would make me weep for joy tbh
I am sure the devs and everybody else on the forum has seen what has been consistently said at this point and have decided one way or another what do about it and what they think about and it would be much simpler for everybody involved if the discussions were kept to the balance thread instead of over all four corners of the earth in any case

About the logistics that Stef mentioned in AGS I would say they are out of context and there was no logistical wizardry needed to do it at all



Here's what happened in AGS if you look it really isn't anything special in the slightest

Here's the sequence I did
Purple: 11th army to clear the way for orange
Orange: 1st PzG corp cleared hexes in the second line
Teal: 2nd PzG corp went full throttle with a clear way

With a bit of recon this would of been seen and defended I have no doubt but luckily Stef did not recon very much throughout our game
It's a simple move all in all with 10 divisions in the way of a HQBU corp
We would see similar results in most cases when repeated under the same circumstances by most people I imagine
After this turn I had no way of pushing on more than a couple of hexes in the south

Now in lew of defending myself from being shouted down or accused of wanting Axis to be op which is apparently a thing that happens now? [&:]
I guess it's important to reiterate... yet again... for the 15th time..... that I do think there are problems with the game atm first and foremost with EXP as it is messing up construction capabilities and stopping power along all secondary fronts and I think rubber banding the supply would be a brilliant idea (if possible?) as using transports with motorised, especially in AGN (very OP) makes it overly efficient atm but I wouldn't want anyone thinking that I propogate Axis as having a hard time at the moment, which I do not, far from it.

Simply put though I am getting exhasuted of repeating these statements now and it simply shouldn't be needed as some sort of legal disclaimer anytime myself or anybody else decides to try and have an open discussion or attempts to bring a little bit of balance in ideas infront of the unrelenting, schoolyard, shouting, flying around