Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[Mike Solli]

Ok, looking at end game engine factories and it ain't pretty. There are 20 factories total. With some 3500 high end fighter engines and maybe 2000 more for any Kamikaze planes you choose to build, that doesn't leave much for anything else. Say 6k engines total, that's an average of 300 per factory. [X(] My engine production total right now (op and R&D) is 2430, less than half. And a lot of them aren't needed for end game planes. Yikes!

[Mike Solli]

So, producing 6k 1E plane equivalents costs 216k HI a month. Let's say we do that for a year. That's 2.6 million HI needed. Granted, some of that will be produced during that time, but we still need a chunk in the pool. I have 1.9 million in the pool right now so I'm on my way there. But I'm only stashing some 2-2.5k a day. Let's lowball that and say 2k (but it'll be going up soon). By the end of 44, I'll have about 2.8 million. And that's just planes...

[Mike Solli]

Ok, looking again, I have 2400 engine factories, but only 1320 are for late war fighters/Kamikazes. I need to look hard at whether to use the Ki-115/Toka combination, or what I'm producing now to supplement that. By using some models I'm producing (or will produce as the models progress), I can save supply by not having to retool engine/airframe factories. Yeah, that's what I'll do. My Ha-35 factories produce 540 a month. That will be my Ki-115/Toka monthly production (minus anything I'm still building using that engine).

Edit: I'm thinking of building only the Ki-115 because I'm "training" many more IJA Kamikaze pilots than IJN. I'll have to dig deeper into this later.

[ITAKLinus]

A couple of random questions:

Is Tojo valuable as Kami? It might be a solution.

Same applies for the Helen.


If they are even remotely useful as kamikazes, I would keep production lines on, thus avoiding the terrible engine switch.



I feel that converting that factory is something you should avoid. It might be more rewarding to fly sub optimal stuff than to throw away huge amounts of supplies invested. Even if it is not producing, it's better to invest on another factory and save the potential production.

That's my ignorant point of view of course and probably I there are many shortcomings in this course of action, but it's what I will probably do

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ok, looking at end game engine factories and it ain't pretty. There are 20 factories total. With some 3500 high end fighter engines and maybe 2000 more for any Kamikaze planes you choose to build, that doesn't leave much for anything else. Say 6k engines total, that's an average of 300 per factory. [X(] My engine production total right now (op and R&D) is 2430, less than half. And a lot of them aren't needed for end game planes. Yikes!

I know. My pregame planning forces me to 5 - 7 Ha-3x engine factories. 15-17 must be Ha-4x. And yes, that means ~300 size each at the end. At 1K supply each, I simply cannot afford to change engine factories. They are set 12/7/41 for the game.
Ha-32/33/35 get fairly large and early '42 is a struggle with engines. BUT the engine bonus on the Ha-4x is guaranteed and is a key supporting aspect of "all in" RnD plan.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
As Whatley says in The Martian, just do the math. [:D] You should see the spreadsheets that materialized when I read that post. [X(]

You ever get out to the valley of the sun and we can swap spreadsheets. [:D]

Retirement in 2 years. A couple trips out west are in the pre-planning phase. [;)]

My youngest is just 9 … retirement isn't in my near future.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, producing 6k 1E plane equivalents costs 216k HI a month. Let's say we do that for a year. That's 2.6 million HI needed. Granted, some of that will be produced during that time, but we still need a chunk in the pool. I have 1.9 million in the pool right now so I'm on my way there. But I'm only stashing some 2-2.5k a day. Let's lowball that and say 2k (but it'll be going up soon). By the end of 44, I'll have about 2.8 million. And that's just planes...

Yep. See my earlier quick calcs above, the HI is there, but you can't squander it in the early/mid game. Many players do.
In saving your 2K/day, you have ARM/VEH running flat out which means those pools are building for the end game. That's what you want. Just plan to keep those going full bore and your your current HI plan will make it (I think, mainly because I use the same one … learned it from you [;)] )

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, producing 6k 1E plane equivalents costs 216k HI a month. Let's say we do that for a year. That's 2.6 million HI needed. Granted, some of that will be produced during that time, but we still need a chunk in the pool. I have 1.9 million in the pool right now so I'm on my way there. But I'm only stashing some 2-2.5k a day. Let's lowball that and say 2k (but it'll be going up soon). By the end of 44, I'll have about 2.8 million. And that's just planes...

Yep. See my earlier quick calcs above, the HI is there, but you can't squander it in the early/mid game. Many players do.
In saving your 2K/day, you have ARM/VEH running flat out which means those pools are building for the end game. That's what you want. Just plan to keep those going full bore and your your current HI plan will make it (I think, mainly because I use the same one … learned it from you [;)] )

Definitely possible to stock A LOT of HI.

1st of August 1942 (turn 238) I had 724.150: it is roughly 2.700 per-day net of the initial 80k.


Stopping MSY quite early on you can gather much more than that.



I hold a lot of India though. My net gain in HI production to 1st Aug 1942 has been +1.340

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, producing 6k 1E plane equivalents costs 216k HI a month. Let's say we do that for a year. That's 2.6 million HI needed. Granted, some of that will be produced during that time, but we still need a chunk in the pool. I have 1.9 million in the pool right now so I'm on my way there. But I'm only stashing some 2-2.5k a day. Let's lowball that and say 2k (but it'll be going up soon). By the end of 44, I'll have about 2.8 million. And that's just planes...

Yep. See my earlier quick calcs above, the HI is there, but you can't squander it in the early/mid game. Many players do.
In saving your 2K/day, you have ARM/VEH running flat out which means those pools are building for the end game. That's what you want. Just plan to keep those going full bore and your your current HI plan will make it (I think, mainly because I use the same one … learned it from you [;)] )

Yep, my arm/veh is running 100%. Next turn, I'm going to massively decrease my merchant shipping production. I shut most of it down a while back but the merchant yards are almost all still going. I'm going to shut off all my xAK and TK production and then decrease my merchant yards by a lot (I'm thinking 75%) and see what I can turn on. I know I'll need more TKs but I may go for more smaller ones vs. the large ones. Yeah, it's a fuel trade off, but we'll see. I'll make that decision when I see the numbers. My ultimate goal is to reduce HI usage. I'm not sure where else to save HI. I'll have to check around to see. Any ideas?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ok, looking again, I have 2400 engine factories, but only 1320 are for late war fighters/Kamikazes. I need to look hard at whether to use the Ki-115/Toka combination, or what I'm producing now to supplement that. By using some models I'm producing (or will produce as the models progress), I can save supply by not having to retool engine/airframe factories. Yeah, that's what I'll do. My Ha-35 factories produce 540 a month. That will be my Ki-115/Toka monthly production (minus anything I'm still building using that engine).

Edit: I'm thinking of building only the Ki-115 because I'm "training" many more IJA Kamikaze pilots than IJN. I'll have to dig deeper into this later.

Look carefully, my spreadsheets on this planning are enormous and redone many time, at your air groups. Figure out which ones you plan to convert to kami. I can't assign hardly any fighter groups as I need every single one to clear the CAP over the target OR train fighter pilots.
So, that leaves me with a much shorter list, and consequently a shorter list of aircraft models to worry about.
Next, it confirms what my split between IJA/IJN kami pilots has to be ….

Now for me, just me mind you, I don't build (well not many at least) dedicated IJN kami groups. Why? 2 reasons.
1. By '45 the percentage of random kami attacks is fairly high.
2. DB's do the same or better damage, have higher hit percentages, and the GRACE.

So, any IJN bomber group- that I can convert to DB, no matter the PP cost gets converted to DB so that I can use GRACE. Speed and range. I wish it carried 800kg, but not in a stock scenario.
Still, against CV's the 250kg does good damage. Speed and RANGE. Best value the IJ has across the board. If I could convert IJA bombers to GRACE I would. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

A couple of random questions:

Is Tojo valuable as Kami? It might be a solution.

Same applies for the Helen.


If they are even remotely useful as kamikazes, I would keep production lines on, thus avoiding the terrible engine switch.



I feel that converting that factory is something you should avoid. It might be more rewarding to fly sub optimal stuff than to throw away huge amounts of supplies invested. Even if it is not producing, it's better to invest on another factory and save the potential production.

That's my ignorant point of view of course and probably I there are many shortcomings in this course of action, but it's what I will probably do

First of all, you're not ignorant. You're obviously thinking about what we all are saying here and wrestling with the problems we all have to try to find the best solution. That's a great thing.

I don't think the Tojo would be a valuable Kamikaze because it doesn't carry a bomb. There is also the issue of converting fighter units to Kamikazes. Once you do that, it can no longer function as a fighter unit. Fighters are of supreme importance in the end game. I'm sure I'll convert some fighter units to Kamikazes, but it won't be many. They will use existing fighter pools that are appropriate (the Oscar comes to mind with it's long range and nice payload).

The Helen makes a wonderful Kamikaze with long range and very nice payload. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's a 2E plane. I can have 2 single engine planes for the same cost, which doubles my chances to hit something.

You've hit on a really troubling issue with that size 360 Ha-34 engine factory. It's all or nothing. I can keep it and theoretically produce 180 Helens a month for Kamikazes or convert it at a cost of 360k supply. I'm leaning toward converting it because I will need the fighters and I can use other existing planes/engines as Kamikazes. Here are some examples of monthly production I can have without making any changes:

120 Jill/Ha-32
30 Betty or Francis/Ha-32
150 D4Y4/Ha-33
30 Nell/Ha-33

plus, I have 540, Ha-35 engine factories that I will use to produce the Ki-115/Toka.

That's 870 planes monthly for Kamikazes using existing engine production and operational/R&D engine factories. So no real cost in supply. That's only ~40-50% of my Kamikaze estimated production, but it is significant. Right now I have ~1200 obsolete aircraft in my pool that are suitable for Kamikazes. That number will grow as new models become available.

I do need to make a decision about the Ha-35 factory, and soon.

[ITAKLinus]

For a problem in the database in my current PBEM (scen1), Tojo mounts Ha-35 instead of Ha-34 and that's a big deal since I will have to switch Tojo factories only, not caring much on Ha-34.


If I had to make a choice between spending hundreds of thousands of supplies on Tojo switch and trying to find an use for it, I would definitely go for the latter.


Broadly speaking, I would begin to increase other factories' production instead of switching. In the worst case scenario I would end up with a lot of unused production capacity with Ha-34 shut off for months. In the best case scenario, I have the possibility to use those stuff somehow even as a temporary/emergency solution.



Regarding Tojo kami: I still have to grasp the actual damage inflicted by the plane itself.





But, again, I am probably in a different industrial situation since I hold India, I have strongly expanded HIs in the DEI and MSY prod is shut off. I feel that this situation allows me to much more freedom in terms of industrial choices (f.ex. using also 2Es as kami)

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ok, looking at end game engine factories and it ain't pretty. There are 20 factories total. With some 3500 high end fighter engines and maybe 2000 more for any Kamikaze planes you choose to build, that doesn't leave much for anything else. Say 6k engines total, that's an average of 300 per factory. [X(] My engine production total right now (op and R&D) is 2430, less than half. And a lot of them aren't needed for end game planes. Yikes!

I know. My pregame planning forces me to 5 - 7 Ha-3x engine factories. 15-17 must be Ha-4x. And yes, that means ~300 size each at the end. At 1K supply each, I simply cannot afford to change engine factories. They are set 12/7/41 for the game.
Ha-32/33/35 get fairly large and early '42 is a struggle with engines. BUT the engine bonus on the Ha-4x is guaranteed and is a key supporting aspect of "all in" RnD plan.

My supreme issue is the Ha-43. I have 4 remaining R&D factories (1x60 and 3x30), and all of them are currently researching the Ha-43 but I also need to work on the NE Turbojet when the Ha-43 becomes operational. My plan is to move the 1x60 to operational and convert the 3x30 to NE Turbojet. Poor planning caused this SNAFU.

I'm locked into the NE Turbojet because I have 6x30 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. The highest is at 18(12) but they are humming along nicely.

When the Ha-43 becomes operational (May 44), I want to convert several other factories to this one so I can begin building the pool quickly. My issue is that the N1K5-J becomes operational the same time. It'll be a battle between pumping out the planes and building up the pool to accelerate Sam. I guess I'll have time because my Sam factories are nowhere near completion.

All this and fighting a war too!!!

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, producing 6k 1E plane equivalents costs 216k HI a month. Let's say we do that for a year. That's 2.6 million HI needed. Granted, some of that will be produced during that time, but we still need a chunk in the pool. I have 1.9 million in the pool right now so I'm on my way there. But I'm only stashing some 2-2.5k a day. Let's lowball that and say 2k (but it'll be going up soon). By the end of 44, I'll have about 2.8 million. And that's just planes...

Yep. See my earlier quick calcs above, the HI is there, but you can't squander it in the early/mid game. Many players do.
In saving your 2K/day, you have ARM/VEH running flat out which means those pools are building for the end game. That's what you want. Just plan to keep those going full bore and your your current HI plan will make it (I think, mainly because I use the same one … learned it from you [;)] )

Definitely possible to stock A LOT of HI.

1st of August 1942 (turn 238) I had 724.150: it is roughly 2.700 per-day net of the initial 80k.


Stopping MSY quite early on you can gather much more than that.



I hold a lot of India though. My net gain in HI production to 1st Aug 1942 has been +1.340

You're right, you can save a lot of HI. For about a year, I had 500 of my ARM factories shut off. During that time, I was saving about 5k a day. I've never been short ARM or VEH points, but I see a lot of infantry units arriving shortly. It's definitely going to cut into my reserves.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ok, looking again, I have 2400 engine factories, but only 1320 are for late war fighters/Kamikazes. I need to look hard at whether to use the Ki-115/Toka combination, or what I'm producing now to supplement that. By using some models I'm producing (or will produce as the models progress), I can save supply by not having to retool engine/airframe factories. Yeah, that's what I'll do. My Ha-35 factories produce 540 a month. That will be my Ki-115/Toka monthly production (minus anything I'm still building using that engine).

Edit: I'm thinking of building only the Ki-115 because I'm "training" many more IJA Kamikaze pilots than IJN. I'll have to dig deeper into this later.

Look carefully, my spreadsheets on this planning are enormous and redone many time, at your air groups. Figure out which ones you plan to convert to kami. I can't assign hardly any fighter groups as I need every single one to clear the CAP over the target OR train fighter pilots.
So, that leaves me with a much shorter list, and consequently a shorter list of aircraft models to worry about.
Next, it confirms what my split between IJA/IJN kami pilots has to be ….

Now for me, just me mind you, I don't build (well not many at least) dedicated IJN kami groups. Why? 2 reasons.
1. By '45 the percentage of random kami attacks is fairly high.
2. DB's do the same or better damage, have higher hit percentages, and the GRACE.

So, any IJN bomber group- that I can convert to DB, no matter the PP cost gets converted to DB so that I can use GRACE. Speed and range. I wish it carried 800kg, but not in a stock scenario.
Still, against CV's the 250kg does good damage. Speed and RANGE. Best value the IJ has across the board. If I could convert IJA bombers to GRACE I would. [:D]

I haven't looked at which air units to convert yet. Another thing just added to the growing list. *sigh*

At least the Grace uses the Ha-45. I have 6 factories building this engine so I can increase it quickly when I need it. Also looks like the Frank, Grace, Myrt and Peggy (a little) will use this engine.

[mind_messing]

My own thoughts, excuse the disordered nature of them but just working down the list.

Ki-115/Toka - you do need a lot of these. There's a lot of late war squadrons that arrive using really poor airframes like Stella/Willow and the orange IJN trainer as well as older airframes like the Ida and so on, but there's far more than you need for training purposes. These squadrons are locked in weird upgrade paths, and require a lot of VP's to move to anything other than Toka/115s. Japan isn't short of PP's in 1945, but you'll burn through them quick spending PP's to move all these squadrons to better planes. The number of Toka/115s lost daily will always be low until you actually use them en masse, but once you do they'll be used up quick.

Grace - Pax likes this, so do I (though maybe not as much). The two bombs seems to help more than one bigger one, as it seems to hit more often. As with Pax, I wouldn't use these as kami aircraft unless there was a massive abundance of them. Use the Jills phased out by the Graces instead.

Kamikaze pilot training - the earlier you start, the better. LowNav is easy to include in the training schedule for both IJA (secondary training for fighter pilots, excess floatplane squadrons for IJN, replacing ASW training when the IJA ASW cadres are trained). Assuming that kamis are activated on 1st Jan, '44, you want to have enough kami pilots to tide you over till the dedicated training squadrons arrive and then let them crank out the fodder.

IJA 2E kami's - The notion that 2 single engine planes in the kamikaze profile equates to twice the chance to hit isn't really correct. If a plane dies to CAP or flak, it's never going to hit. The Helen and other IJA 2Es have the best durability and armour (with bonus defensive guns as a side) and so stand the best chance of beating both CAP and flak. It's much harder to get them in bulk, but IMO the key to any successive kami strike seems to be to get the right mixture of expendible planes to act as ablative armour for the CAP and durabile planes to make it through to the final approach, escorted with a healthy seasoning of fighters. I'm not much convinced that the likes of a Helen will fare any better being being whacked by a USN 5in DP gun than any other aircraft, but I think it might do a bit better getting through the cloud of Bofors and Oerikon that surround late war Allied ships. Peggy T should be reserved for conventional attacks only, however.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

For a problem in the database in my current PBEM (scen1), Tojo mounts Ha-35 instead of Ha-34 and that's a big deal since I will have to switch Tojo factories only, not caring much on Ha-34.

If I had to make a choice between spending hundreds of thousands of supplies on Tojo switch and trying to find an use for it, I would definitely go for the latter.

Broadly speaking, I would begin to increase other factories' production instead of switching. In the worst case scenario I would end up with a lot of unused production capacity with Ha-34 shut off for months. In the best case scenario, I have the possibility to use those stuff somehow even as a temporary/emergency solution.

Regarding Tojo kami: I still have to grasp the actual damage inflicted by the plane itself.

But, again, I am probably in a different industrial situation since I hold India, I have strongly expanded HIs in the DEI and MSY prod is shut off. I feel that this situation allows me to much more freedom in terms of industrial choices (f.ex. using also 2Es as kami)

Yep, in Scenario 1 (which I'm playing), the Tojo mounts the Ha-34, so it is what it is.

So far, I've averaged a gain of 50k supply a month. I've been gaining more than 100k a month this year, but it's about to drop with the engine and airframe changes coming. I trust Pax's supply goals for end game. He's played a lot more of that time frame than me (this is the farthest I've ever played). I need 6 million supply in about a year. I have 4.3 million right now. At 100k per month, I'll have 5.7 million saved. Close enough. But, I have a lot of engine & airframe expansion to do. I'm trying to come up with an supply cost estimate now. The HI should be fine, but the supply will be a concern.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

My own thoughts, excuse the disordered nature of them but just working down the list.

Ki-115/Toka - you do need a lot of these. There's a lot of late war squadrons that arrive using really poor airframes like Stella/Willow and the orange IJN trainer as well as older airframes like the Ida and so on, but there's far more than you need for training purposes. These squadrons are locked in weird upgrade paths, and require a lot of VP's to move to anything other than Toka/115s. Japan isn't short of PP's in 1945, but you'll burn through them quick spending PP's to move all these squadrons to better planes. The number of Toka/115s lost daily will always be low until you actually use them en masse, but once you do they'll be used up quick.

Grace - Pax likes this, so do I (though maybe not as much). The two bombs seems to help more than one bigger one, as it seems to hit more often. As with Pax, I wouldn't use these as kami aircraft unless there was a massive abundance of them. Use the Jills phased out by the Graces instead.

Kamikaze pilot training - the earlier you start, the better. LowNav is easy to include in the training schedule for both IJA (secondary training for fighter pilots, excess floatplane squadrons for IJN, replacing ASW training when the IJA ASW cadres are trained). Assuming that kamis are activated on 1st Jan, '44, you want to have enough kami pilots to tide you over till the dedicated training squadrons arrive and then let them crank out the fodder.

IJA 2E kami's - The notion that 2 single engine planes in the kamikaze profile equates to twice the chance to hit isn't really correct. If a plane dies to CAP or flak, it's never going to hit. The Helen and other IJA 2Es have the best durability and armour (with bonus defensive guns as a side) and so stand the best chance of beating both CAP and flak. It's much harder to get them in bulk, but IMO the key to any successive kami strike seems to be to get the right mixture of expendible planes to act as ablative armour for the CAP and durabile planes to make it through to the final approach, escorted with a healthy seasoning of fighters. I'm not much convinced that the likes of a Helen will fare any better being being whacked by a USN 5in DP gun than any other aircraft, but I think it might do a bit better getting through the cloud of Bofors and Oerikon that surround late war Allied ships. Peggy T should be reserved for conventional attacks only, however.

Hi John, you bring up a lot of excellent thoughts that just create more turmoil for me. Thanks a lot. [:D]

So, what's a "lot" of Ki-115/Tokas? I currently have 540 Ha-35 factories and can continue to pump out engines until they become operational. I plan on putting R&D factories on The Ki-115 within the next few months and the Toka no later than late spring 44. I currently have 1100 Ha-35 engines in the pool and that rises about 5 a day. That rise should increase a bit as the Zero and Oscar production decreases. Oscar is off and the Zero is intermittent. At any rate, by the beginning of 1945, I should have a minimum of 3200 engines in the pool with about 500 a month (give or take) produced monthly by then. I think I'll be good with Ha-35 engines.

I don't plan on using the Grace as a Kamikaze. What I didn't realize was that the Grace can be used in TB units. You implied that. Is that true?

I've been training kamikazes for quite a while now. My goal stats are 40+ exp / 60+ LNav. The number of pilots being trained at any given point will only increase with time.

Interesting thought on the 1E vs. 2E Kamikaze thoughts. Great. Now there's more to contemplate. [:D]

Agree with the Peggy(T). Not sure how many of them I'll have or when I'll get them. No research on them currently. [8|] They come 9/44 so I may just wait. I don't have the R&D factories to allocate to them to significantly change that date. Question: Does the Peggy Ia upgrade to the Peggy(T)? I think not but the Ia becomes operational in 2/44 for me. I'll have to check.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


...I don't think the Tojo would be a valuable Kamikaze because it doesn't carry a bomb...

Not necessarily so.[;)]

Alfred

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


...I don't think the Tojo would be a valuable Kamikaze because it doesn't carry a bomb...

Not necessarily so.[;)]

Alfred

I've been hoping you'd show your face here. So, what does make a good Kamikaze? I've heard people claim that bombs don't make that much of a difference, but I've learned to take some things here with a grain of salt.