Four Seasons with Models

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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

The Alps:



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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Norway:



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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Southern Turkey:



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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

The Kiel Canal.



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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Lenningrad.



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E6Russell
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by E6Russell »

When I start a random Game using either US, European, or Southern when It is putting thousands of troops (ie: 3,750 Staff in Supreme HQ, 5,400 Rifle and 1440 machine guns in an infantry unit etc) in the initial units (Garrison, extra units at SHQ etc)

I have tried this with many different map sizes and numbers of countries.

Is it set up to give you this many SFT's in a unit?

Is there a setting that im not seeing that is ramping up the numbers?

Oh, and how do I upload a picture?

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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Sorry, I didn't see this post. I was away last week for last-minute travel.

For the "large" numbers, this mod is using the Ratio feature in the editor of the SFT's. A Rifle SFT represents an infantry company with approximately 200 men. A tank SFT is a tank company with 15 tanks. This was introduced by Vic and is similar to the DC series. Unfortunately, the way to turn it off is to manually set all the Ratio's to 1. I agree it takes some getting used to. You can find the ratio you click on the SFT in the unit window, this brings up an information dialog, click on "General Stats" and it will be at the bottom of the left-hand column. When you use the TOE system, you will see the actual number of SFT's in the units as you design them. Also, when you open the transfer dialog from an HQ you will see the actual number of SFT's.

Thanks for downloading. Also, you should also be sure to have downloaded version 2.0.1 that I posted a few weeks ago. This fixed a major stupidity of mine: I relied on the make .atzip file in the editor, and forgot that I had several SFT pictures in events for models that included. Other improvements/changes are on the way, as well as a scenario.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

To upload a picture click on the blue "Click here to upload!" tex right below the text box in the reply dialog. This will bring up a dialog to upload a picture. Choose browse and find your picture, select it and click "OK" to upload it. It has to be a gtif or a jpg and < 500 kB. To have it embedded in the post be sure to check the box next to it.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
E6Russell
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by E6Russell »

Hope your travels went well.

Thanks for the response. I think I will try to get the large numbers back down to the smaller ones we were used to. My son (13yo) seems to have a difficult time with the big numbers.

It is a blast now having my son play against me via email. As you can imagine there is a LOT of Smack talk back and forth and lots of emotions when turns are opened or battles take place.


I now see the embed picture. It doesnt show up in the fast reply.

Here are some modifications that I have made or am trying to make.

1. I have made quite a few changes that happen with Event #1.

I have VP' assigned to Capitol, Cities, Towns, All Factories, Ports, Fields etc, and to the (2) hexes on each side of a bridge. This is an attempt to force the AI to go more for strategic items and choke holds such as bridges.

I also have changed the terrain around to my liking such as changing 75% of fields to plains, %75 of swamps to heavy forest etc.

I have also changed air, storm movement. It allows Air to operate, fly from, into and thru storm at a hefty movement penalty. It allows for limited operations.

I also want to create more sft's and change some. (Maybe Models)

Airborne Staff
Airborne Heavy Weapons or (MG, Bazooka, Mortar)
Marine Staff
Marine Heavy weapons, or (MG, Bazooka, Mortar)
etc,

I also have added many more item groups to break the sft's down into more categories.

Light Naval, Heavy Naval, Light Arty, Heavy Arty, Infantry, Marines, Airborne, SF etc.

This is because I limit the items that can be produced at certain locations. No Cities can produce any of the "Heavy" items, a specific "Heavy Tank, Aircraft etc) factory has to be built to produce these. (The exception is the Capitol which can produce all except specialty items such as Airborne, Marines et)

You have to build a Specific Marine Base on a Beach, An Airborne Base in Plains, Staff Colleges, Mt Training Base in Mts etc.

I use Capitols, Major Cities (City) and Minor Cities (Town( Each is limited in what they can produce forcing the player to build factories.

I am also wanting to get rid of urban, suburban terrain (Which is easy to get rid of them all) but am working on having the computer to place Suburban terrain (along with a VP)at maybe %55-%60 percent of road junctions and maybe %20-%25 of those would change to Urban.

Also am working on getting rid of most Fields and Bocages in the "Wild Areas" and having the computer place maybe %75 or so of fields on any hex that has roads on a plain. I just find that more pleasing to my eye.

With all the changes I am trying to make this is the biggest. I want the to have a Human SFT and a Computer SFT. Human Locations and Computer Locations. Human players would be limited to Heavy Naval, Air, Specialty Factories and bases etc. The AI however will have a hard time doing this. So, when the ai takes over a Location such as a city it will replace the Human City with the limitations for a Regular Computer Uses City with no restrictions. If it captures a Heavy or Light Factory Human Factory it will be replaced with a Normal Computer Factory that can produce all Air, or tanks or Guns (the AI will nor differentiate between Heavy or light or Marine vs Airborne etc)

Oh I also had on another computer (Which I lost and cant get the files off of) My own card system

At the beginning of your first turn only you were issued a card to remove all units from your territory. You are given combined points for everything "Turned" in. Then you could purchase and place with the card system units, factories, bases, fortifications etc.



Any way I hope those make sense,

Those are just ideas from me, and thanks for all the work you and all the other real modders have done! I just play around at it










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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

It sounds like you have done much more than play around! You have gone into the system a bit to make several changes.

I can only imagine the smack that you are getting.

Work keeps getting in the way of doing more stuff, and looks to be a problem for the next few weeks.

As for para-staff. I don't think it is possible to para-drop an HQ, so it doesn't matter if you make them droppable or not. Accept for a "cheat" which would be to drop them in another unit, create an HQ and transfer the unit to the HQ. The problem is the readiness loss for changing the HQ. Which, if you want, you can reduce or eliminate with rulevar 48.

There is also not much reason to make "marine" staff. They can't really affect amphibious landings. Unfortunately, this is controlled through rulevar 100 and is global/universal. This is why I created a "beach" hex. First of all, this isn't a bad idea for controlling where landings can occur, but I also used to give marines a combat bonus on beach hexes that partially offsets the amphibious landing penalty.

I like your ideas of adding VP. This is a bit hard to automate though. Although, I suppose one could do it somewhat smartly.

I have also been thinking of the factory/model thing. That a factory is generally geared to make something specific and it is not that easy to just retool to a new piece of equipment. I am not sure how to do this though. There are also two issues in the design phase. One is for human players, and the other is the AI. It will not do some things, like shore bombardment or use aircraft carriers.

Another thing I am also looking at is exploitation. Mobile warfare was new to WW II and it had some spectacular results. Making a scenario to have Poland and France fall as quickly as they did is not that trivial.

Well, back to work on my mods before I have to call it quits.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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Khanti
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Khanti »

I am pleased to see this mod is still taken care of :)
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There is no such thing as a historically accurate strategy game. Every game stops being historically accurate from the very first move player do. First unit that moves ahistorically, first battle with non-historical results, mean we ride in unknown.
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CaptBeefheart
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Ormand: Many thanks for the effort in putting this mod together. I'm enjoying it a lot.

I'm stymied on Heavy Weapons I. The tech doesn't show any precursors in the description and it is still not available after I have Mortar, MG and Bazooka (the last one just in case). On the model page there's nothing remotely similar to Heavy Weapons-related models. Not a huge thing but I'm wondering how I can get Heavy Weapons going. That would simplify things.

Cheers,
CB
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Actually, Heavy Weapons was a "replacement" tech for machineguns and mortars with division level units. At the time, I was thinking of having on a 15 mile/hex grid. With this, technically, artillery should have a range of just one hex. So, I thought of integrating artillery into the divisional units. This meant that the 8 SFType limit was going to cause trouble and I thought of combining machineguns and mortars into a single SFType. In the end, artillery with a 1 hex range is not a great idea, especially with AI. One problem is that it takes away a design aspect of ATG where artillery causes a loss in readiness. In addition, I have found that the AI doesn't deal with regimental artillery units with a range of one hex very well. It seems to treat it as a regular unit, engaging in land combat, rather than as artillery. So, I backtracked and went back to machineguns and mortars. I thought that I made the tech hidden, but obviously not. So, it has some confusion. I confess that I did not delete it because I wasn't sure if this would a permanent change, and wanted an option in the future (OK, I was lazy and didn't want to have to put it back in).

I am glad to see that you like it. I have not abandoned this. I have been working on it quite a bit, and fixed several things that you have probably noticed, and I am reworking SFTypes and the models to make them more realistic. In addition, a few other AI tweaks. With luck, a beta will be available in a week or two. I will need a little feedback then, for several aspects, like cost of models and upgrades. Actually, improvements, as direct upgrades will not be available from Level N to Level N+1. Instead, tank models will have "improvements" to their gun, and some other tweaks to armor. The same will be true for aircraft as well. I am also integrating a different naming system based on a model number; the nicknames don't go away, just used differently.

It will need whatever the latest ATG version there is. Sorry, this mod pushes the limits on models.

Give me another two weeks or so, and I will push it out the door.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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ernieschwitz
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by ernieschwitz »

OK, I was lazy and didn't want to have to put it back in

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CaptBeefheart
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Thanks a lot for the explanation. Very quick response. I'm fairly new to this game, but will certainly do what I can to offer feedback on your next iteration. I'm on a break from my usual WITP-AE play.

One reason I was hoping to use heavy weapons is the light armored division has all eight slots filled, and as Light Tank I's start dying, there's no place to put replacement "Panther" light tank models (Germanic country) and Light Tank I's can't be upgraded to Panthers (at least I haven't figured out how). To me, for ease of adding replacements, it seems best for divisions to use only seven of the eight slots. For instance, if you do not have enough supply to upgrade your Rifle I's in the division, you'll need an empty slot to add fresh Rifle II's.

Cheers,
CB
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Thanks for playing!

Yes, upgrading can lead to that problem. You kind of have to try and do them all at once, which means storing up supplies for a big conversion.

I thought that I had all the SFTypes based models so that they upgraded to the next one that it converted to. Note, not the model themselves, but the SFTypes, much like the Rifle I to Rifle II. So, Panther I to Panther 1A to Panther II. On the other hand, those original Light Tank I I give you can't be upgraded at all if you play with the "Models Only" option. They were meant to help get the war started and represented some equipment that your regime purchased before the trouble started. Same for the fighters. Now I can't remember if I give that many Light Tanks I in that version or not. I have expanded that a bit, as I said to get things started. I could make this a variant.

At any rate, I am trying to make sure that the SFTypes can be upgraded. In the new version, when I get it finished, the stream will be PzKpfw V to PzKpfw V B to PzKpfw V C, etc. The model will never upgrade to PzKpfw VI. (Had to correct myself here). The SFTypes, however, will upgrade to the next level for the same type, i.e., Medium Tank I to Medium Tank II. When you create a new model at a higher level, I go through the models and point them to this model. It is not quite right, but I have to work with what I have.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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CaptBeefheart
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by CaptBeefheart »

I have no problem at all upgrading Panther A to Panther B. However, I can't seem to upgrade Fighter I models (Steinlager?) to Fighter II models (Falke). Will try again this evening to make sure it wasn't a lack-of-supply issue.

I wouldn't sweat the original Light Tank I's you have starting the game in Lt. Armored Divisions. I booted the mortar to allow space for Panther replacements.

Look forward to your next iteration.

Cheers,
CB
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CaptBeefheart
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Hello Ormand: Just seeing how this is going. I did confirm that there's no upgrading between models of different names (i.e. Steinadler to Falke).

Also, I wonder about the AI. In the game set up, do you know what effect AI+ and AI++ have? I am at the point where I need to give the AI a boost to make this a challenge.

Looking forward to your update.

Cheers,
CB
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Hi Captain,

Overall, things are progressing. I have run into a few issues (more later) but, I have worked through the tank models, and I am working on the aircraft models now. I can see that historically these are a bit different, but I will go forward with the general idea. Thus far, the tank models are satisfactory.

There are a few snags, which I am in communication with Vic, and we'll see. They aren't complete showstoppers I am also probably being a bit more complicated. The one problem has to do renaming, which doesn't seem to work quite right within the event that is called to create the model. I could be doing it all wrong, but. So, this could change my plans to have a different naming system. Another is a change that I think would make the model process a bit more flexible, but is likely harder to implement and could have issues with backwards comparability. It would be nice, but 100% essential as of now. It would leave a slight issue with obsolete concepts still being available, but there is also a workaround for that, it is just a little clunky.

At any rate, most of the coding should be done fairly soon, and I have built the subroutines to be adaptable to some possible changes.

I don't think I ever had a capability to upgrade between model families. It should work that if you upgraded or improved a model the previous model will upgrade to that model. The new version will be a bit different in that models will not be upgradeable from Level N to Level N+1. However, when you make a new model of the same type, say Medium Tank, the newest instance will be set to upgrade for the latest model with Level N-1. By, this I mean the model itself isn't upgraded, but you can upgrade the subformations in a unit. That looks to be working, but will need some testing.

As for AI+ and AI++, what happens is that the AI gets big production bonuses, so it will produce lots of equipment and push you hard that way. I haven't looked at just how big the bonuses are, nor have I looked at how to control them. That said, something like this could be a way to make things more competitive.

I have been thinking about the AI quite a bit, and I am not sure if it is something more particular to my mod since the unit structures are a bit different, and the overall code might prefer something different (basically, I am thinking of the basic subformations as companies for all unit types). The AI situation is a bit complicated and depends on a few factors. One might also be if you use the Diplomatic block, which allows you to get set up and form a line. This is harder for the AI, as it doesn't quite know what to do with it. But, unless I miss my mark, what you are probably experiencing is the AI suffering losses of the order 2-2.5:1 (maybe even 3:1). After awhile, these losses add up, and the AI is effectively crippled. These losses largely come from attacks on defensive positions at modest odds. The fact that the AI makes these attacks might also be because I make it fairly aggressive to start a game. After suffering these losses, the AI also is bringing up troops, but they tend to be fairly low in readiness since they are being transferred, etc. I was experimenting, and when I get done with the mod rework get back to, some changes that will help the AI somewhat. One might well be not to use the diplomatic block, and let the AI get its shot at you. But, the others are some changes to stack limits and concentric bonuses to give the AI a little edge to reduce its losses. I am looking at some very simple things, like giving the AI the chance to use three full units from two hexes to attack before overstacking penalties (instead of two) and small bonus for attacks from two hexes. These are probably the most likely types of attacks. The other is to reduce the readiness loss for reassignments and transfers for the AI. I also want to try to code up some "objectives" for the AI. That is try to determine a location for it to target and make that a focus. It will be random, so you won't know.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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CaptBeefheart
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Thanks for the update.

Good luck with the AI. I found a two infantry division per hex defensive line at a 4-hex choke point is impervious to AI attacks. The AI seems to do single-hex attacks (at least that's what it looks like in the replay--I could be wrong). Anyway, even if the AI does a proper breakthrough it tends to set itself up for an encirclement on the next turn.

The AI also really likes MG subformations for some reason. I guess that's not bad for defense, but horrible on offense.

None of these are complaints, just observations. I like messing with OOBs and the production and logistics aspects of the game. It's good fun.

Cheers,
CB
Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.
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