Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

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rustysi
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I'll convert 3 back to the NE Turbojet

Not bothering with the Japanese jets. Did you see its SR rating. A 4. I don't even know if I'll be able to keep those SR3 aircraft in the air, let alone a 4.

I made that decision YEARS ago. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. They're at 18, 15, 14, 10, 8 and 3 of 30. No way I'm changing that decision. I expect to get the NE Turbojet 2/45. No estimate on the Ki-201, but it is advancing.


Fair enough. Maybe I'll get to see how they work before my first PBEM.[:D]
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Ha-43 is going to have a fairly high late war demand. Could there be another late war model that changes to it? Or maybe its some other aircraft that I want in pretty good numbers that uses it. I forget. Anyway...

Remember in '44 you'll need lots of fighters. IRL Japan produced some 13000+ plus that year... And she lost!!![:D]

Here's what I see using the Ha-43:

A7M2 Sam
A7M3-J Sam
J7W1 Shinden
N1K5-J George
Ki-74-I Patsy
Ki-83
Ki-95

The last 3 are all 2 engine.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I'll convert 3 back to the NE Turbojet

Not bothering with the Japanese jets. Did you see its SR rating. A 4. I don't even know if I'll be able to keep those SR3 aircraft in the air, let alone a 4.

I made that decision YEARS ago. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. They're at 18, 15, 14, 10, 8 and 3 of 30. No way I'm changing that decision. I expect to get the NE Turbojet 2/45. No estimate on the Ki-201, but it is advancing.

I had 2 factories for the Ki-201 and will be getting it sometime in mid-1945 at latest... I think. With 6, you might get it earlier? I'm surprised you won't have the engine sooner however...
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by rustysi »

J7W1 Shinden
Ki-83

These are probably what I was thinking of...
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: rustysi



Not bothering with the Japanese jets. Did you see its SR rating. A 4. I don't even know if I'll be able to keep those SR3 aircraft in the air, let alone a 4.

I made that decision YEARS ago. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. They're at 18, 15, 14, 10, 8 and 3 of 30. No way I'm changing that decision. I expect to get the NE Turbojet 2/45. No estimate on the Ki-201, but it is advancing.

I had 2 factories for the Ki-201 and will be getting it sometime in mid-1945 at latest... I think. With 6, you might get it earlier? I'm surprised you won't have the engine sooner however...

Because of my royal engine R&D foul up, I have 4 remaining and they're all on the Ha-43 (switched over a few game months ago). In May 44, I'll convert 3x30 to NE Turbojet so it'll start up again in June 44. Right now NE Turbojet is at October 45 and will accelerate to February 45. [8|]
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Zorch »

Do you have a tickler list of things to do different next time, such as engine R&D and getting ships with Type 2 depth charges on escort ASAP?
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by mind_messing »

I wouldn't be afraid to over-estimate your needs for late-war airplanes. Think of what you'd like, then add 50%. They'll be used up in some capacity, and most importantly, the Allies can't bomb your engine and airframe pools.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by rustysi »

quote:

What are your Ki-115 R&D factories looking like right now?


I'll have to check, but IIRC one is ~20/31. Its an oddball that starts that way. The other is ~10/30. I'll get back with the exact amounts.

The exact amounts are 21/31 and 13/30. I'm currently in mid-Feb. '43. I think I said late Feb in another post somewhere, don't know how I messed that one up.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I wouldn't be afraid to over-estimate your needs for late-war airplanes. Think of what you'd like, then add 50%. They'll be used up in some capacity, and most importantly, the Allies can't bomb your engine and airframe pools.

+1

Can never, ever have too many Shindens. [:D][:D][:D]
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I wouldn't be afraid to over-estimate your needs for late-war airplanes. Think of what you'd like, then add 50%. They'll be used up in some capacity, and most importantly, the Allies can't bomb your engine and airframe pools.

+1

Can never, ever have too many Shindens. [:D][:D][:D]

Guess I need to bump up my airframe & engine production at some point. [X(]

Still waiting for a turn...
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

Well, I crunch the numbers on plane production like this.
Scen 1
End game 9/45 onwards: Allies get ~1000/month top line fighters from production (P51,P47,F4U,Spit,Yak9). They get another 500/month in 2nd line fighters (older p51/p47/p38 types). Double that to account for all the new groups that come in fully stocked. At best, I have to plan for 1.5:1 loss rate. So, 3000 fighters/month losses. Minimum. Assuming I have not let the allies build pools, or that I have built pools to match. [;)]

IJ top end fighters are a mix of: Ki84/94, Shinden, A7M, Ki83, Ki201. Assuming 85/15 split between the 1E/2E that means 3450 (let's round it to 3500) 1E equivalents or ~130,000 HI/month. Also means that I had to expend 6M supply to have built the factories.

These are the numbers that haunt all of my early and mid-game plans. Given that the amount of supply and HI that IJ will have between 12/7/41 and 9/1/45 is finite and calculable, if your strategy is to outlast historical IJ efforts and push the game to 46, then the player has to temper their expenditures in the early/mid game (which historically IJ did). Arriving at 6/44 (my target date for keeping DEI whole at a minimum, I need to have 6M supply in the bank just for AC factory builds (less whatever I have already spent on final factories which will be some) and at least 2M HI in the bank with full ARM/VEH pools (minus whatever final engine pools) to be able to build out my AC plan.

That's it in a nutshell.

This is why I have long believed and espoused the Major Solli methods of economic expansion: slowly, carefully, and only the minimum needed. It is so hard not to build 1000/month Ki44 in the mid game and just dominate easily. But if you do, then you are going to have to fight endgame Stangs with Tojos … I prefer Shindens for that, but that's just me. [;)]
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by mind_messing »

It's also worth paying special attention to the plane types that you get mid-war that you'll be using all the way through to the end. It's worth building a big pool of them early, then rolling back production as you get a large stockpile. There are quite a lot, but it can help to top up the pools early so that production can keep up with losses, and you've a cushion against the bad days where you'll lose 400 or more aircraft in a single day.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

Thanks Tony and John, now you got me doing some calculating again. [:D] When does the Tojo become obsolete? I still use them and they are still effective. But, my IJA fighters are mainly the Frank and a few Tony sentai for bomber defense. I'm also building more Nicks too. I'm going to look at the Tojo monthly losses over the past year (yeah, I have all the turns [X(]). I want to try and estimate how many I'll need (including the Helen bomber and transport, which I use) and do a final production run. I have a single size 360 factory for the Ha-34 engine. I'd like to convert it to something else, but it'll take a year to repair. [X(]

Right now I have 674 Ha-34s in the pool. I'll bet I can live with that for the war. I'll have to look up my Helen bomber pool. I suspect I have ~100 of them. I will need to reserve some engines for the transport, which is my IJA transport plane. At any rate, I'll pull up the numbers in the pool and go from there. Maybe it's time to phase out Tojo production.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks Tony and John, now you got me doing some calculating again. [:D] When does the Tojo become obsolete? I still use them and they are still effective. But, my IJA fighters are mainly the Frank and a few Tony sentai for bomber defense. I'm also building more Nicks too. I'm going to look at the Tojo monthly losses over the past year (yeah, I have all the turns [X(]). I want to try and estimate how many I'll need (including the Helen bomber and transport, which I use) and do a final production run. I have a single size 360 factory for the Ha-34 engine. I'd like to convert it to something else, but it'll take a year to repair. [X(]

Right now I have 674 Ha-34s in the pool. I'll bet I can live with that for the war. I'll have to look up my Helen bomber pool. I suspect I have ~100 of them. I will need to reserve some engines for the transport, which is my IJA transport plane. At any rate, I'll pull up the numbers in the pool and go from there. Maybe it's time to phase out Tojo production.

You can stretch the Tojo in to 1944 if it's relegated to second line CAP duties, or China/Manchuria, but my outlook is that they should be gone in favor of the Frank by 7/43. This gets the Tojo out of the field before the Mustangs, Corsairs and Thunderbolts start to appear, and the Tojo just can't compete.

I checked the aircraft comparisons in tracker, and the Tojo IIc model compares reasonably well to Soviet fighters, so if the Manchurian air force is still using Nates before August '45, give them the Tojo's that you're stuck with.

The Tojo is a common trap for IJ players IMO: it's a great airframe for a decent section of the game, but it's performance goes right off the cliff after the end of 1943.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The Tojo is a common trap for IJ players IMO: it's a great airframe for a decent section of the game, but it's performance goes right off the cliff after the end of 1943.
+1

The issue (IMO) is speed. Once the delta gets to be above 80, the plane is obsolete. So when the +440 allied planes start showing up, the Tojo is just not enough. The extra 20-30 that Frank has is what keeps it competitive.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

Well, you guys convinced me. I'm done with the Tojo and producing any more Ha-34 engines. I have 7 1/3 sentai totaling 274 Tojos, mainly in Burma with a few scattered around the rest of the Pacific. There are 207 in the pool. I have 674 Ha-34 engines in the pool, enough for 337 Helen bombers and transports. So, I will figure out what to do with the single size 360 engine factory. I'll convert it before this month is out. That'll be expensive, but necessary. I also have 3 Tojo factories, 1x60 and 2x30. Gotta figure out what to do with them too.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

Hate the factory changes, but there are some that are just inevitable; Tojo is one of them. Pretty hard NOT to build it because so strong mid-game, but it cannot last into the end game very well. The only away around it is to commit to the Frank early and BIG. But that means living with the Oscar (yuck!) for 12 months … a very, very long time. To compensate, you can go big on the George/Jack (pick one) so that you have at least one competitive fighter in early '43. You are still stuck with the Oscar, but have something to fall back on. George/Jack unlike Tojo are still useful in the end game. They are NOT premium fighters, but are still effective. Still, Sam is your main objective for IJN … you just gotta have it ASAP. Going all in on it, you can get it in '44 … but you have to go all in to do that. Means a lot of pain in the early years …


Good Luck!
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Lokasenna »

I re-activated the Tojo after the Tony was performing poorly, particularly against bombers. Not what I expected given the relative strengths of the airframes, but the Tojo is just a better CAP plane even if the Tony is slightly better overall. Even in late 1944. You basically have to choose between the two and they're both mediocre.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by rustysi »

What about the SR ratings? Don't I need some SR1 planes to help out. If not how do I keep all those high SR rated planes in the fight? I mean I have a few ideas, but no experience as yet. One of the reasons I'm continuing my current AI game.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Well, I crunch the numbers on plane production like this.
Scen 1
End game 9/45 onwards: Allies get ~1000/month top line fighters from production (P51,P47,F4U,Spit,Yak9). They get another 500/month in 2nd line fighters (older p51/p47/p38 types). Double that to account for all the new groups that come in fully stocked. At best, I have to plan for 1.5:1 loss rate. So, 3000 fighters/month losses. Minimum. Assuming I have not let the allies build pools, or that I have built pools to match. [;)]

IJ top end fighters are a mix of: Ki84/94, Shinden, A7M, Ki83, Ki201. Assuming 85/15 split between the 1E/2E that means 3450 (let's round it to 3500) 1E equivalents or ~130,000 HI/month. Also means that I had to expend 6M supply to have built the factories.

These are the numbers that haunt all of my early and mid-game plans. Given that the amount of supply and HI that IJ will have between 12/7/41 and 9/1/45 is finite and calculable, if your strategy is to outlast historical IJ efforts and push the game to 46, then the player has to temper their expenditures in the early/mid game (which historically IJ did). Arriving at 6/44 (my target date for keeping DEI whole at a minimum, I need to have 6M supply in the bank just for AC factory builds (less whatever I have already spent on final factories which will be some) and at least 2M HI in the bank with full ARM/VEH pools (minus whatever final engine pools) to be able to build out my AC plan.

That's it in a nutshell.

This is why I have long believed and espoused the Major Solli methods of economic expansion: slowly, carefully, and only the minimum needed. It is so hard not to build 1000/month Ki44 in the mid game and just dominate easily. But if you do, then you are going to have to fight endgame Stangs with Tojos … I prefer Shindens for that, but that's just me. [;)]

[:(][X(][8|]

I mean the whole thing... The whole thing. Mind boggling, how in the H$ll do I do that.[:D]
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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