The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

Talking House Rules:

If I was to PBEM this ever again I'd look into "strategic HR" rather than "Tactical HR"

ie You must pay PP to cross borders.
US LCU cannot enter China/India/Burma except for the historicl forces (Merrill, 112 Cav etc)
Only AIF units (6,7,8 & 9 Aust Infantry, Cdo Companies, Armd Rgts & Base Forces) can leave continental Australia except for 3 other Divisions which can enter Papua/NewGuinea, Solomons. The 3 AIF Divisions & Corps troops which arrive in Aden cannot be deployed into India. They may base in Ceylon but must attempt to transit to Australia (bit hard to enforce)
NZ Army/Air Force units cannot move further north than Rabaul.
Canadian units can only deploy in Canada, Alaska incl the Aleutians.

Similar limits on the japanese player.

Generally I want to create more of the political environment that the war took place in rather than limit some of the tactics used.

Up to you and your opponent, but hard to achieve. Also does stifle creative solutions to differences in historical play. You can sack commanders in game, and change whole theatres by how you deploy or don't deploy your forces. To limit certain areas you also imply the using forces in the historical areas they operated in. It gets very hard to maintain.

All of these things in the war were subject to conditions, political changes and the proceedings of the war in other theatres.

That said, I'm not against this kind of historical perspective in game. It's just a game of it's own.

I'd like to play a Japanese game that adds more limits, including no R & D at all, no pilot training, and no Army/Navy cooperation (separate bases for IJA and IJN planes, in effect). I would like to see how hard it is to play, but also what a battle of 40 exp 60 skill pilots looks like as opposed to the ones we usually have with only experts. I wouldn't have this game PDU-off though because that does stifle creativity and choice in how you deploy the aircraft that do appear at certain points in the war.

For most of these things you would not need HRs though, and could self-impose limits on what is available to your play.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Lowpe »

From a recent turn....attacking a lone MTB!



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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

This is not an attack on you, just the easiest way for me to write my ideas on this.

I don't think of it as an attack. I am trying to solve a mystery to me.

Did your opponent confirm that this DD was a single ship TF?

Many times I have seen combat reports against my ships that only list one or two ships out of 3 to 7 ships that actually were in the task force.

Maybe the single ship attacked was part of a larger TF but as you said about sighting anomalies, they didn't get the whole picture.

It will be a week or more of real time before we get an attempt to test. I am noting the units, patrols and search paths and once the action is attempted and resolved (either intercept and battle or the raider makes a clean escape) then I will post specific info.

I have no idea of where other than the generic 'test area' nor his target within and I am going to maintain the patrols and picket I have been running since the invasion of the Aleutians to convoy units and supplys to the front.

Thanks for the reply.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From a recent turn....attacking a lone MTB!

Was this confirmed by your opponent it was a single ship task force or was this the only ship your attackers saw and hit?

I have seen what looks like single ship TFs on long range Netty search after a naval surface battle but I don't know that is a single ship or not, as it also could be a 2 ship Escort TF limping back to port. And I have never experienced a Netty launch long range against such a sighting. That could be a lot of factors (weather, fatigue, leadership, experience, etc.) - but never is forever until I see it myself.

Thanks for the reply.


Thanks.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: DanSez

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From a recent turn....attacking a lone MTB!

Was this confirmed by your opponent it was a single ship task force or was this the only ship your attackers saw and hit?

I have seen what looks like single ship TFs on long range Netty search after a naval surface battle but I don't know that is a single ship or not, as it also could be a 2 ship Escort TF limping back to port. And I have never experienced a Netty launch long range against such a sighting. That could be a lot of factors (weather, fatigue, leadership, experience, etc.) - but never is forever until I see it myself.

Thanks for the reply.


Thanks.

I know it was a single ship TF, as I sank all the other MTBs the day before in several combined actions between fighters and surface ships.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I know it was a single ship TF, as I sank all the other MTBs the day before in several combined actions between fighters and surface ships.

Ok, thank you for the detailed report.
[&o]
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Mike McCreery »

ORIGINAL: DanSez

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From a recent turn....attacking a lone MTB!

Was this confirmed by your opponent it was a single ship task force or was this the only ship your attackers saw and hit?

I have seen what looks like single ship TFs on long range Netty search after a naval surface battle but I don't know that is a single ship or not, as it also could be a 2 ship Escort TF limping back to port. And I have never experienced a Netty launch long range against such a sighting. That could be a lot of factors (weather, fatigue, leadership, experience, etc.) - but never is forever until I see it myself.

Thanks for the reply.


Thanks.

Yes, he blew the living shit out of my 1 ship TF. Training, commander aggressiveness and most importantly DL along with stuff like weather make these things not dependable.

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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

ORIGINAL: DanSez

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From a recent turn....attacking a lone MTB!

Was this confirmed by your opponent it was a single ship task force or was this the only ship your attackers saw and hit?

I have seen what looks like single ship TFs on long range Netty search after a naval surface battle but I don't know that is a single ship or not, as it also could be a 2 ship Escort TF limping back to port. And I have never experienced a Netty launch long range against such a sighting. That could be a lot of factors (weather, fatigue, leadership, experience, etc.) - but never is forever until I see it myself.

Thanks for the reply.


Thanks.

Yes, he blew the living shit out of my 1 ship TF.

I will accept your surrender after such a crippling loss! [:D]
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

Both sides confirm, that is a solid report so I appreciate that.

Will continue my own test with trascott but looks like my fears maybe unfounded.
I doubt those moter boats were running in to interdict supply so let's see if a true raider can be spotted and stopped.

Will report my own results if(when?) they occur later.
thanks
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Lowpe »

Single ship MTB or PT boat task forces are by far and away the hardest to spot and get aerial attacks on.

The problem you may be encountering is that a destroyer or cruiser can flank speed in from 12-18 hexes away!

In addition there is the time honored technique of island hopping and disbanding before day search planes are up.

Primarily it all comes down to a solid understanding of detection levels, which most players suffer from the witp ae myths, rumors, and misunderstandings. Also understanding the turn sequence is important too.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by MakeeLearn »

ORIGINAL: DanSez


Did your opponent confirm that this DD was a single ship TF?

I was playing the AI. The single ship TF was tracked down and finished the next day. I've also attacked many single ship TF before that Iam certain were just single ships. I've also had my single ship TFs attacked by the enemy's planes.

The experience and NavSearch skills of your air crews will play a big part in the success of spotting of enemy ships.















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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Major Shane »

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

Talking House Rules:

If I was to PBEM this ever again I'd look into "strategic HR" rather than "Tactical HR"

ie You must pay PP to cross borders.
US LCU cannot enter China/India/Burma except for the historicl forces (Merrill, 112 Cav etc)
Only AIF units (6,7,8 & 9 Aust Infantry, Cdo Companies, Armd Rgts & Base Forces) can leave continental Australia except for 3 other Divisions which can enter Papua/NewGuinea, Solomons. The 3 AIF Divisions & Corps troops which arrive in Aden cannot be deployed into India. They may base in Ceylon but must attempt to transit to Australia (bit hard to enforce)
NZ Army/Air Force units cannot move further north than Rabaul.
Canadian units can only deploy in Canada, Alaska incl the Aleutians.

Similar limits on the japanese player.

Generally I want to create more of the political environment that the war took place in rather than limit some of the tactics used.
I am playing against Japan AI and I use almost everyone of the strategic HR you mention. I too feel that trying to set the original political conditions is important.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

I promised updates on this test.

Game date is 1 Dec, 1942.
We get in about 3-4 turns a week.

About a month back in game time, Allied command sent in a French AMC scooting about 2 hexes South of the Aleutian chain. IJ intel is uncertain about it's target of opportunity.

Emily Patrol boats stationed in the Western parts of the Aleutians spotted the lone raider with enough DL that a combat patrol group consisting of 2CL and 4DDs reacted 2 hexes from their patrol line an intercepted the raider, destroying it.

This is good news that the command structure and naval assets will react to a raider.
My original question if a naval air strike will lauch has not been replicated yet.

I have a couple of scenarios that could develop where a launch would come from land based or carrier based planes and catch a raider. The test continues.

Overall situation:
The Allies are concentrating on a push thru Tarawa (lost to the Marines in the past month). A snap Allied invasion of Ocean Island was just defeated. Air war and naval activity is increating along the Solomons defense line. Woodlark Island also just fell. IJ still controls Lunga and the Allies have built up Port Moresby to a high level.

We have another rule about carrier sizes, to prevent either side from creating a death star/ super KB. 1943 has both sides with carrier groups at 3 airplane capable ships per TF.

IJN 3 ships the whole war.
Allies have 'year' plan which means in 1941 - 1 airplane capable ship per TF, 1942 Allies have 2 ships, 1943 with 3 ships (paridy with Japan), 1944 exceed Japan at 4 ships per and 1945 a mini deathstar in comparison to the still limited Japanese with 5 airplane capable ships per task force.

Some won't like this rule -- that's ok. It seems to have slowed down the operational pace of the game which given our pace of gameplay is appreciate.

The most important 'rule' is to keep communication open and be honest about what you want out of this long game experience.




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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by PaxMondo »

So, let me just say that the AI in Ironman uses single and 2 ship raider TF's a LOT. There must be at least 50 scripts, if not more, just for this. At least it seems that way. [;)]

Up until about mid-march 42 they are incredibly effective. But beginning about Mar 42 I get my NavSearch units up and running and I can start to catch these proactively instead of reactively. Overlapping NavSearch will work in conjunction with SCTF's. In other words, the same thing technique for ASW works just as well for raider SCTF's.

At least for me ...
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

thanks PaxMondo
I sincerly appreciate your reply.

I am still learning the game after how many years?
Hoping for a good long fun learning experience.
Training wheels are needed, I guess. Which is one of the purposes of HRs.
The other is to try and address possible exploits or past burns.

Asto the current test, I am still concerned about the game's ability to launch air attacks against single ship task forces, which if that hole exists IS an exploit. There are credible folks who say that naval air attacks will fly. I do not doubt they believe it to be.

I need to see proof myself under real game (PBEM) conditions. I am encouraged by the SCTF reaction that killed the test invader. A totally unscripted, 'real world' situation where naval search located and surface forces charged out of a patrol zone to interdict. Love that and am happy to report it.

Probably my concerns are unfounded. I am willing to admit so if I see proof.

The AI has to cheat to be competetive so if the AI uses single ship task forces is not an issue. From my limited reading of the forums (or perhaps my limited understanding[&:]), I gather the AI has other 'special powers' that a human opponent does not have like to move ships across the map beyond the normal movement ranges.

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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by PaxMondo »

Air attacks, not sure. SCTF's will react though when the NavSearch 'illuminates' them.

The challenge you have for Nav Attack is that the AI is prioritizing missions, and a single ship TF with low detection can fail the test. So, you would need high DL which means overlapping NavSearch (including NIGHT NavSearch) to get multiple hits each day to drive up and maintain the DL. Barring weather and multiple TF's, I rarely don't see a Naval Attack when the DL is high.

Having said that, hitting lone targets, especially DD's is hard with LB. SCTF's OTOH are very effective if you have a CL or a CA in them....

"Use the right tool for the right job"


I feel you are trying to use the wrong tool here. You're thinking 2018 when you are playing 1941. No GPS, no exact coordinates, no air borne radar (until late game and even then finicky) … When the Brits were chasing raiders in the Atlantic, they didn't say "Leave it to the RAF". The RAF was a crucial part, but they absolutely sortied SCTF's and those SCTF's were the primary instrument for dealing with the raiders. I'm including the Bismark here, even though her demise was largely due to aircraft, those aircraft were part of a TF, they weren't land based ….
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by DanSez »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Air attacks, not sure. SCTF's will react though when the NavSearch 'illuminates' them.

The challenge you have for Nav Attack is that the AI is prioritizing missions, and a single ship TF with low detection can fail the test. So, you would need high DL which means overlapping NavSearch (including NIGHT NavSearch) to get multiple hits each day to drive up and maintain the DL. Barring weather and multiple TF's, I rarely don't see a Naval Attack when the DL is high.

Having said that, hitting lone targets, especially DD's is hard with LB. SCTF's OTOH are very effective if you have a CL or a CA in them....

"Use the right tool for the right job"


I feel you are trying to use the wrong tool here. You're thinking 2018 when you are playing 1941. No GPS, no exact coordinates, no air borne radar (until late game and even then finicky) … When the Brits were chasing raiders in the Atlantic, they didn't say "Leave it to the RAF". The RAF was a crucial part, but they absolutely sortied SCTF's and those SCTF's were the primary instrument for dealing with the raiders. I'm including the Bismark here, even though her demise was largely due to aircraft, those aircraft were part of a TF, they weren't land based ….

At the heart of my thoughts are less about which 'tool', but more about 'attitude'.

I don't recall a history of the Allied side sending in single ship kamakazi style attack ships to disrupt Japanese bases or supply lines.

Yes, the Germans did send single raiders out with disastrous results. Allied air units were instrumental in the sinking of the Bismark, a single ship raider.

Pacific war naval assets were assembled in fleet and squadron units and deployed as such. In emergency circumstances single ships would try to escape or skirt the conflict to rejoin and reform into larger units.

This is a game where there is no political or policy over site to the player other than HRs. If we want to deviate from what the programmers probably assumed was the 'standard practice' (ie SCTFs composed of more than 1 ship) and start a war of single ship raiders, what effect would that have on 'the game'?

And please to any haters out there (not you), I am not asking for a rule to allow the Japanese to do something the Allies are not. I have refrained from any single ship raider forces from the opening gun of this match and asked my opponent to do the same. His query to allow this test happened after the hectic expansion period and I have developed defensive lines so the detection of raiding parties are as about as optimal as can be with my present skill level. Now is a great time to test this problem.

Other exploits, in my opinion, are the Death Star, where the numbers just overwhelm the model and the game is reduced to a glorified version of the board game Risk. Another more grievous one is the fake amphibian assault with BBs/CAs/and a few ADPs loaded with just supplies where the model focuses it fire at the approaching supply points and not at the BBs busting your units up off shore.

The lack of imposing the chain of command is another historical exploit, but one widely conceded and forgiven. It would 'slow the game down too much' is the probable retort but also there is the real concern that to do it properly would depend upon trusting both sides to pay the PPs necessary to properly structure their LCUs withing the proper commands, all within the same limited theaters of operations. A lot of extra housekeeping which gets in the way of the rush to do battle.

Balancing fun vs realism is a not well defined zone of conflict between human opponents. The 'this is a game' folks see HRs in the worse case as a fussy unnecessary layer of law-fare or lack of talent by the player. In the more forgiving cases as 'not worth the argument' or 'takes too much time'. The 'this is a simulation' folks see game mechanics that deviate from the historic force structure as in the worse cases 'cheating' or in the more forgiving views that it 'benefiting' one side or the other.

Sorry I am rattling on...

To your point, yes I am learning to use multiple layers for defense. I think I do a fair job in the ASW side. I certainly put in the time and attention, but my opponent would have to speak about its effectiveness.

I think the SCTF reaction is a good case to make that limited number of raiders could be effectively countered by properly defensed positions and allowing one side or the other to explore the fringes of the battle field to find those less defended points to prod.

In the hands of a skilled human opponent, single ship TFs could stymie the short period of Japanese expansion. If the invasion bonus for the Japanese were open ended, then there would be less benefit of sacrificing kami-style a few Allied cruisers to salvage parts of the Marshalls or Solomons which can then be rolled up earlier than historically. That is a viable 'game' strategy but a very questionable one 'historically'.

Both players need to express what they want in a match before the first bomb falls on Pearl Harbor to ensure that the match will survive to a mutually satisfying conclusion.

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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion (IJ – DanSez) vs (Allied – t

Post by Bif1961 »

The Bismark wasn't alone it had the CA Prinz Eugene and those two took out the Hood and damaged the Prince of Wales and old BC, yet the pride of the British prewar fleet and a modern BB.
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion

Post by adarbrauner »

I"m pleasured to join this interesting discussion;

to the point: I dont think that the use of "single" ship raider forces by Allies may disrupt in any way the advance of Japan in first months...;

I think the Allied side should be let free to explore/exploit this "tactic" if he feels to;

I'm also in favor to the use of single yard/fishing boats as pickets (that's so realistic), but when this used to "soak" air strike packages (or to expend ammunition and "ops point" from major surface fleets), so then we may enter some "danger zone" but still I would not forbid or ask to from the opposed player; I may think though that he's a "freak"...
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RE: The Whys and the Wherefores - AAR Post Mortem and House Rule Discussion

Post by mind_messing »

Single ship task forces are easy enough to spot and destroy within the current game mechanics.

The detection issue is easily solved by a layered naval search doctrine. Long-range search airframes need to be focused on a specific vector (or else simply acting as a wide range tripwire for invasion forces). Medium range planes need to perform the actual search duties in enough numbers to provide consistant "finds" on task forces, while shorter range airframes such as floatplanes and the like provide the bulk of short-range daylight search and night naval search.

As for their destruction, it all stems from their detection level. The section in the manual on this subject is well worth reading to understand how it works and why task forces are particularly difficutlt to "spot", as well as the massive importance of a big commitemnt to naval search.

A high detection level results in aircraft being able to find and perform missions attacking single ships, as well as SCTF with a patrol route and a react setting peforming intercepts.

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