Banzais Don't Make Victories - Anachro (A) vs John 3rd (J) BTS 5.7

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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GetAssista
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RE: Jan 12, 1942

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
This had been a repeated topic in a number of IJN threads about the value of certain DD upgrades.

And conclusion was always: DP guns are godly, the ingame AA rating is useless for escorts but only matters for the big target ships. Don't upgrade your ship if you lose DP guns for pewpews. It is nice, that Anachro actually found one of the original posts about the topic though. This one clarifies it quite well.

If somehow the opponent feels like low level bombers are a thing, those Bofors/Oerlikons do something as escort defense. But in your usual engagement they are pointless.
This is different from your original erroneous statement. Nobody disputes that 5inch DPs are the main AA asset you have as Allies. Because they really were, with their ceiling, tracking and proximity fuses. Bottomline of LoBaron's post is that TF AA contributes in 2 phases out of 3. While yours was that TF does not contribute outside of attacked ship if no DPs. See the difference?
Mahrgell
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RE: Jan 12, 1942

Post by Mahrgell »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
This had been a repeated topic in a number of IJN threads about the value of certain DD upgrades.

And conclusion was always: DP guns are godly, the ingame AA rating is useless for escorts but only matters for the big target ships. Don't upgrade your ship if you lose DP guns for pewpews. It is nice, that Anachro actually found one of the original posts about the topic though. This one clarifies it quite well.

If somehow the opponent feels like low level bombers are a thing, those Bofors/Oerlikons do something as escort defense. But in your usual engagement they are pointless.
This is different from your original erroneous statement. Nobody disputes that 5inch DPs are the main AA asset you have as Allies. Because they really were, with their ceiling, tracking and proximity fuses. Bottomline of LoBaron's post is that TF AA contributes in 2 phases out of 3. While yours was that TF does not contribute outside of attacked ship if no DPs. See the difference?

Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.
The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.

See the difference?


So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?

GetAssista
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RE: Jan 12, 1942

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.
The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.
See the difference?

So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?
Methinks you pull wrong conclusion out of the LoBaron's "usually".
Anyway, I've tested it just now to clear the misconception.
On a naked map with 3 Vals coming in on 10k attacking a TF of Lexington stripped of his planes + 6 Omahas. No other planes except 41k flying navsearch to have DL on the US TF.
Bottomline: all of Omahas fired their 6000 ceiling Bofors, and even some of their 4000 ceiling 20mm. Which should not've been possible if AAA fire only on planes atacking the ship - there are 3 planes and 7 ships. Case closed
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Anachro
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Jan 13, 1942

Post by Anachro »

Originally CLAA were supposed to contirbute in all three phases, but this appears to not have made it into the final product. Still, I think the benefits of the CLAA outweigh keeping the cruisers as CLs. The escort duties you mention they might be better spent on can be fulfilled by other CLs in the mean time while they upgrade. I don't view that role as sufficiently important not to upgrade them. Moreover, they can contribute, where possible, to 2 of 3 phases and they aren't always necessarily going to be in a carrier task force, but could easily provide cover for other convoys, task forces, where they could very well be a target during the attack phase. I'm satisfied with my choice.

Jan 13, 1942

Last ships trying to escape the DEI and various transports and cargo ships are running a gauntlet of bombers. BB Prince of Wales has arrived at Sydney to undergo her 1/42 upgrade. The only thing of note today is that John lands at Balikpapan with a full division and a number of his ships take mines during the process. 2 destroyers are listed as going under, though I cannot know for sure.
TF 7 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97)

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Mine hits 1
TF 7 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97)

Japanese Ships
DD Yugiri, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
TF 7 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97)

Japanese Ships
DD Yugiri, heavy damage
DD Shirayuki
DD Inazuma

6 mines cleared
TF 185 encounters mine field at Balikpapan (64,97) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

6 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
DMS W-12, Shell hits 2, on fire
DMS W-11, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Hibiki, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Bingo Maru, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
16 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
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adarbrauner
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RE: Jan 12, 1942

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.
The above is the main reason why DP high caliber guns expend more ammo. They a) usually fire in three phases instead of one, and b) also fire against a/c attacking other ships in a TF.
See the difference?

So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?
Methinks you pull wrong conclusion out of the LoBaron's "usually".
Anyway, I've tested it just now to clear the misconception.
On a naked map with 3 Vals coming in on 10k attacking a TF of Lexington stripped of his planes + 6 Omahas. No other planes except 41k flying navsearch to have DL on the US TF.
Bottomline: all of Omahas fired their 6000 ceiling Bofors, and even some of their 4000 ceiling 20mm. Which should not've been possible if AAA fire only on planes atacking the ship - there are 3 planes and 7 ships. Case closed
Wait: did they dive? What the difference gradient between 40mm and 127 mm in ammo usage?
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BBfanboy
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RE: Jan 12, 1942

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: Mahrgell
Two phases? I think you should have went with LoBaron's bottomline instead of making up your own.


See the difference?

So how again are the AAA contributing to fleet air defense, except in the case of someone sending his Nells in at 6k for I don't know what reasons?
Methinks you pull wrong conclusion out of the LoBaron's "usually".
Anyway, I've tested it just now to clear the misconception.
On a naked map with 3 Vals coming in on 10k attacking a TF of Lexington stripped of his planes + 6 Omahas. No other planes except 41k flying navsearch to have DL on the US TF.
Bottomline: all of Omahas fired their 6000 ceiling Bofors, and even some of their 4000 ceiling 20mm. Which should not've been possible if AAA fire only on planes atacking the ship - there are 3 planes and 7 ships. Case closed
Wait: did they dive? What the difference gradient between 40mm and 127 mm in ammo usage?
The difference would be very difficult to figure out since the 5 inch fire slower, but start firing much sooner and continue firing much after the aircraft is out of range for the 40 mm.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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Anachro
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Jan 14, 1942

Post by Anachro »

Jan 14, 1942

Balikpapan falls and another Japanese xAK takes a mine hit with heavy damage. Last of shipping is leaving Sorabaja while taking damage from his air and naval forces. Some new Dutch subs arrive there.

A ton of shipping arrives at Panama. Lots of organization to be done, but John is unrelenting in his aim to paralyze my ability to move troops and ships from the west coast. John seems to be launching another western raid there as my newly formed picket line spots him and one brave xAKL goes down. I am sick of this and am very tempted to bring the carriers home and focus on escorting and protecting reinforcement and supply convoys instead of trying to react to his offensive movements. So far sigint has picked up no plans or troop movements beyond the DEI and I have no idea where he will go. I will instead purely focus on strengthening my supply route to Australia and ignoring John for now. If he keeps conducting sporadic raids into the west, it might be time to surprise him there with my carriers...

Image

2 USN CVs and 1 British CV are at Sydney, 1 USN CV is between Suva and Palmyra, and 1 CV is at Panama.
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CaptBeefheart
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RE: Jan 14, 1942

Post by CaptBeefheart »

I once played an Andy Mac Ironman scenario which included numerous IJN 20 floatplane-capacity AMCs wandering hither and yon. I ended up setting up convoys between Cape Town and Hobart and Port Stanley and Christchurch. Devious man, that Andy Mac.

Let's hope your CVs can roll up one of those splinter KBs.

Cheers,
CC
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traskott
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RE: Jan 14, 1942

Post by traskott »

Those AMC were true killers. Even CAs went down......


Btw: John is spending A LOT of fuel on this raids... And it's short of flatops at SOPAC-SWPAC....
Mahrgell
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RE: Jan 14, 1942

Post by Mahrgell »

I dont think you can say he is "short" on flattops. Just count those roaming CVs as part of the bonus CV in the scenario, then you still have the usual numbers in the real combat areas.

But your point about fuel expended is really interesting and it had been mentioned few times that the resources side in this scenario is actually tricky for the Japanese. Can somehow share some more details, what exactly had been changed there? Is the fuel/oil production same as in stock? So will the increased fleet just get the Japanese bunkers dry in 1944?
And what else had been changed to the ressources side?
jwolf
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RE: Jan 14, 1942

Post by jwolf »

If you could catch one or two of his oilers then I bet that would put a stop to these raids all the way to Panama.
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uncivil_servant
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RE: Jan 14, 1942

Post by uncivil_servant »

This smells like a trap. Sure, if you can catch his oilers/refueling fleets it would be a considerable hindrance BUT, he has got to know what he is doing would draw a response.

This scenario is custom made for CV battles. He could be trying to lure you into a fight with a "lesser" KB with reserve CV forces ready to pounce.
Bullet points:
While " many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered" that is 1942-43. Expect ALL IJN naval forces at the start to be comparable to the original KB in value and experience. I.E. better than yours.

He vastly outnumbers you in Carrier Forces:

He got 4 extra large ocean-going Glen SS which he can park in and around his raiding CV fleet. More often than not he will see you before you see him.

With all the extra cruisers and hybrid cruisers/cvl vessels, the vessels (likely) come with decent endurance and are not short legged vessels.

With the improved ASW on vessels (Why??? IJN does far better vs. allied subs in game than IRL) he can afford to have fewer DDs in his fleets and thus making them more able to make deep raids, as well as for a fast response to you moving to engage versus fleets with larger numbers of short legged vessels.


It just seems that he is doing this to trigger a response, and the only expected response is a CV response on your part.





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Bif1961
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RE: Jan 14, 1942

Post by Bif1961 »

I say if you can account for all his carriers in his far flung KB elements and you can isolate one of them along the west coast then go for it even medium damage to him would be a killer so far from home and you could get cripples back to the major west coast ports for repairs quickly. You might be even able to shuttle in west coast naval squadrons unto your carriers as you switch out depleted ones while he would have to fight with what he brought.
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Anachro
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Jan 15-17, 1942

Post by Anachro »

@everyone I'll respond in a bit; have to make a run to the store to make dinner.

Jan 15-17 1942

John continues to evict me from parts of the Malayan peninsula and is doing his best to annihilate the last of the shipping leaving Sorabaja. A bunch of transports and cargo ships are destroyed by enemy cruiser forces far south of Sorabaja between the DEI and northwestern Australia. If I had actually been thinking, I could have set a carrier trap, but I was rushed and not thinking when I made that decision. Carriers remain at Sydney while they fill out some fighter/pilot replacements to make sure they are optimal for any potential combat.

Elsewhere, I am starting to have PBYs all along the Palmya/Suva route to watch his forces. I even have an AVD/PBY setup in a green dot not too far from Tarawa by which I can completely scout Kwajalein and the surrounding areas. The only question is the large gaps in search coverage between Hawaii and PH, PH and the American west coast. Since spotting his carriers east of Midway on the 14th, they have disappeared and my xAKLs in an anticipated path towards the west coast have not been spotted. I am very wary of sending laden transports into such an unknown expanse when his carriers might have slipped through my unfinished net of pickets.

The only real news is there might be some indication as to where John plans to go, given by the piece of sigint below. Of course, this could be deliberately false information.
1/Imperial Guards Division is planning for an attack on Vizagapatnam.
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BBfanboy
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RE: Jan 15-17, 1942

Post by BBfanboy »

Imperial Guards is one of his strongest divisions. It doesn't seem likely he would waste the prep time on a unit he needs to put to work, so I think that is good SIGINT.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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Anachro
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Jan 18, 1942

Post by Anachro »

@commander_cody I currently have convoys running from Africa -> Perth -> Sydney, but this isn't fast enough for my liking. It might make sense to have an extra slower convoy running through Stanley to NZ.

@traskott I also think he is spending a bunch, but he doesn't seem to care.

@Mahrgell I also share your assumptions about the CVs. I don't want to get into a CV battle till I'm ready. Currently dealing with plane upgrade/pilot issues. The F3-Wildcat is superior to the F3A, yes? It appears so to me.

@uncivil_servant Against enemy carriers, I only plan to use my CVs, at least early on, when they are concentrated and fully trained up. Moreover, it needs to be a situation where I can create complete surprise, have local superiority / recon, and his forces are split.

@jwolf & bif I, too, would love to catch his oilers. He has scattered forces in the SoPac moving stuff around. Might try some smaller carrier raids to sink undefended ships south of Kwajalein. Never against doing surprise carrier raids on unsuspecting land/island bases.

@BBfanboy I was thinking the same thing. The area is being reinforced. Given that John could go anywhere at the start of the game, I was already fortifying the southern coastline of India. There is an base unit there building forts as well as ~70 in AV. Forts are ~70% to 3. I am sending more troops + base units to build up forts ASAP. Trying to figure out where I should place the full British division I have. Currently, it is at Trincomlee as I think its important to hold Ceylon the event he tries to invade India's coast in the Bay of Bengal. I'd imagine any invasion has a simultaneous invasion of Ceylon. At the same time, Ceylon has too much coast line to defend all of it. Might be more pertinent to throw it away and send all the AV I can to India proper. He can probably gain a foothold and eventually concentrate enough AV on Ceylon to overwhelm or bottle up defenders.

Jan 18 1942

The fun event today is that I manage to catch John with his pants down at the recently conquered Balikpapan where he had put ~50 ships into port. The Dutch manage to land a strike of a sort and 27 bombers attack the base without air protection. No ships are sunk in the process, but perhaps some might burn up. I hope so. Maybe I should have done a city strike on the oil instead. Nonetheless, I like the results.
Morning Air attack on Balikpapan , at 64,97

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 27

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Syoto Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Kiso Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Kyokko Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Zuiko Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Kinkai Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Keihuku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PG Izumo, Bomb hits 1
DD Yugiri, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Bengal Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Jinshu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Toyu Maru, Bomb hits 1
xAK Kuritake Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Seizan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Ryuzin Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

I also still have Singkawang and he won't take it for awhile yet. I'm thinking of moving my bombers here to hit whatever he might have in Singapore. His DEI carriers were last seen heading that direction...
Ground combat at Singkawang (56,88)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 2607 troops, 12 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 68

Defending force 4546 troops, 36 guns, 17 vehicles, Assault Value = 85

Japanese adjusted assault: 41

Allied adjusted defense: 75

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
150 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
23rd Ind Engineer Regiment
16th Naval Guard Unit

Defending units:
Sarawak Force
W Borneo KNIL Battalion
W Borneo Mil'ie Cdo
2/15 Punjab Battalion
2e-VLG-I Sup Afd
1e-VLG-V Sup Afd
Singkawang ML Base Force
106th RN Base Force
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Bif1961
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RE: Jan 18, 1942

Post by Bif1961 »

At Rabual he got caught on the ground with his massive planes stationed there by your Bombardments, now he gets caught by your bombers at Balikpapan. Keep him guessing and use all the tools you have and punish hi m when he takes liberties. Slowly down Japan is the key in the early Allied months and watching your SIGINT for signs of where he plans to go next.
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Anachro
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Jan 19-20, 1942

Post by Anachro »

Jan 19-20 1942

There has been very little pressure or any intention shown for movement deep into the South Pacific, at least as of yet. Therefore, I am assuming based on recent sigint that John will make a hard push for India after the DEI. This alleviates my need to get supply/troop convoys going as quickly as possible to SoPac, but amplifies the need to reinforce India ASAP. It takes awhile for troops to transit from the east coast to Capetown. Marine and USN base units are still going to to the South Pacific to reinforce Noumea/Efate/Luganville/Suva, but Army engineers, tanks, and (Sep) Inf regiments, CD units, and AA units are being bought out and reallocated to India. I am also sending bombers, patrol craft, and building up interior air bases from which to bomb him. I am deliberately not building up port or air bases on the coast where he might land.

The last two days I send some DD raiders to get some undefended cargo units spotted south of Kwajalein where they manage to hit one in the night and cause some minor damage. They will try to hit some more as they head home. John is also recon'ing Baker Island, either to see if I have stuff there or maybe to eventually take it so he can do deep patrols into my SoPac trade routes.
ight Time Surface Combat, near Ocean Island at 132,126, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAKL Shonan Maru #8
xAKL Toyotsu Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Nitiyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Penang Maru, Shell hits 4
xAK Uji Maru, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Worden
DD MacDonough

In the DEI, I send the Dutch bombers to bomb Singapore from Singkawang. Hopefully, they actually manage to fly and find an undefended port. We'll see.
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Anachro
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Jan 21-22, 1942

Post by Anachro »

Jan 21-22, 1942

SoPac

Convoys are now moving to PH/Palmyra (port needs to be built up), Stanley->NZ, etc. The real interesting situation is that my recent minor raid using two DDs has stirred up the local Japanese forces and a CV fleet seems to have appeared at Ocean Island. Basic nav search estimates ~70 fighters, ~100 bombers, ~30 auxiliary.

I have 3 USN CVs and 1 British CV nearby. Saratoga is moving to Pago Pago, while Indomitable, Enterprise, and Lexington are transiting there as well from Australia. Might be in position to strike, but I am in the midst of filling out aircraft on the CVs and making all pilots aboard are well trained. The new complement for the USN CVs is (37 fighters, 20 search DBs, 18 bomber DBs, 15 torpedo bombers). This is the allocation I've set for all of them. Fighters are either F3F or F3F-A Wildcats. The fighter element for Indomitable has also been raised with one of its smaller bomber units removed. These are not fully filled out yet, but my theoretical fighter strength is ~140 with current strength closer to ~110.

Image

India

I received information that units are moving to Port Blair. I am setting up basic nav seatch with bombers on hand do try and spot this invasion task force and I will try to position Hermes in a way to strike this force from out of range of his LBA. British cruiser task forces are are also moving in if there is opportunity for an intercept. If his invasion fleet is well escorted, especially by carriers, I will retreat without action.
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obvert
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RE: Jan 19-20, 1942

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Jan 19-20 1942

The last two days I send some DD raiders to get some undefended cargo units spotted south of Kwajalein where they manage to hit one in the night and cause some minor damage. They will try to hit some more as they head home. John is also recon'ing Baker Island, either to see if I have stuff there or maybe to eventually take it so he can do deep patrols into my SoPac trade routes.
ight Time Surface Combat, near Ocean Island at 132,126, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAKL Shonan Maru #8
xAKL Toyotsu Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Nitiyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Penang Maru, Shell hits 4
xAK Uji Maru, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Worden
DD MacDonough

In the DEI, I send the Dutch bombers to bomb Singapore from Singkawang. Hopefully, they actually manage to fly and find an undefended port. We'll see.

Looks like you're causing some problems. [;)]

All of these little actions add up, and it slows him down. He won't like to cover every transport or invasion. He wants to use the IJN to hunt. So keep making him pay and take what he gives.
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