May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

[PvtBenjamin]

In my opinion being able to spend that much on diplo should be controlled. It ruins the game. Each side should have 250-350 diplo point max.

[Sugar]

Just in this extreme case: I doubt Italy would be able to spend 525 additional MPPs directly after the fall of France, they don`t benefit from plunder; otherwise it would leave them very vulnerable in Libya and at sea.

Germany could handle it by neglecting all other researches than fighters, tanks and tac. bombers, and still buy all of those units before the DAK arrives. They still have to cancel all previous chits for no gain.

Should Britain not be able to counter immediately, it will have 3 chits in Spain versus none; this way it would nearly be impossible to reach the 60% needed to entice Franco.

In general major diplo hurts Britain more than the Axis (the downside of uber-diplo), but they could still counter by 2 chits immediately and then by replacing spanish hits, reducing Axis' chances to 15% at least.

Considering the conditions, it won`t keep SU from entering totally, but could delay until US joins and keep their income very low.

Hard to say if that's a viable strategy for the Axis without trying; at least SU is overestimated anyway (also in case of uber-dplo); it`s still a long road to the key cities even without any resistance, and the Brits could use the italian weakness to their benefit.

Perhaps the best way to counter is to ignore SU, keep the chits in Spain going, and totally focussing on destroying the RM and conquering NA (even if Britain should be lost).

[PvtBenjamin]

Many good points Sugar.

My argument isn't the strategies surrounding the major diplo move. Its that it shouldn't be possible. The human player in PBEM will always test the limits and in this case needs to be limited. I don't think the authors intent in the game is for major country diplo to possibly have such a large impact on the game.

[Sugar]

I guess we all got your point already.

[PvtBenjamin]

That'll teach me for being gracious.

[Trump2016]

Since nobody seems to understand what the build points actually do, to influence countries in diplomacy, its all crazy fantasy stuff anyways.

[Sugar]

Technolog. transfer, polit. concessions, trade agreements, charme offensives, modern weaponry.

Maybe fantastic, but not impossible perhaps; I agree that potential swings are too big, or the effects too decisive.

[KorutZelva]

Sugar you say of Uber-Diplo that 'if one side commit, the other is forced to diplo counter' but also that it is to the allied detriment. Logically that would mean if Axis go first, forcing the allies on that route would be a net gain. I mean, if uber diplo is that bad for the allies, why not fire the first shot with the Axis all the time?

Unless you are saying that uber-diplo is to the Allied detriment BUT also simultaneously to the Axis detriment? At the same time? How does that even work? [;)]

[Sugar]

Because the posible targets are not of the same importance and urgency; SU won't join the Axis despite all effort, and there's still a time window to get the necessary 60% to entice Franco.

In the end it stays a high risk gamble for both sides; it´s not mandatory to counter every single chit p.e..

[Trump2016]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Technolog. transfer, polit. concessions, trade agreements, charme offensives, modern weaponry.

Maybe fantastic, but not impossible perhaps; I agree that potential swings are too big, or the effects too decisive.

Then that should be reflected in the game, if Germany or CW swings the % in its favor, then Russia should gain something?

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Because the posible targets are not of the same importance and urgency; SU won't join the Axis despite all effort, and there's still a time window to get the necessary 60% to entice Franco.

In the end it stays a high risk gamble for both sides; it´s not mandatory to counter every single chit p.e..

But if the Axis strike first, they pick the target (aka USSR).

If USSR readiness spike wasn't a big deal, you wouldn't have spent mpp in diplo to try roll back Allied influence in the USSR in our game. Technically Italy joined pretty much as the same time France folded making those Italian diplo chits superfluous if you only wanted to contain further increases. Even with the new 60% threshold, it is unlikely that you would have kept your chits in Spain waiting for them to fire before switching them to the USSR or limited yourself to your two remaining chits to cover the USSR.

[Sugar]

Then that should be reflected in the game, if Germany or CW swings the % in its favor, then Russia should gain something?

Perhaps a good idea for the upcoming SC title; Russia gains inf. weapons 1 for a swing of 5%; but there's also immaterial benefits, like prestige or calming down inner opposition.

[Sugar]

If USSR readiness spike wasn't a big deal, you wouldn't have spent mpp in diplo to try roll back Allied influence in the USSR in our game.

In our game you achieved a 3. hit, and I could estimate to reach the necessary % to entice Franco. Meanwhile from my experience I know better how to handle it; it's simply a question of when to launch Barbarossa; 3 average hits mean to launch it june 22., without Lithuania. Lithuania adds 1 more turn, every missing hit an additional turn.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

If USSR readiness spike wasn't a big deal, you wouldn't have spent mpp in diplo to try roll back Allied influence in the USSR in our game.

In our game you achieved a 3. hit, and I could estimate to reach the necessary % to entice Franco. Meanwhile from my experience I know better how to handle it; it's simply a question of when to launch Barbarossa; 3 average hits mean to launch it june 22., without Lithuania. Lithuania adds 1 more turn, every missing hit an additional turn.

Well well. Disrupting Axis Barbarossa timetable and increasing USSR R&D and unit spending seems like an clear allied benefit to me. I wasn't overly lucky getting those three hits that were pretty close to the expected odds.

Bottomline is that Uber diplo done right is a good tool in the Allied toolbox. Don't see it being a thing on the Axis side unless dreadfully mismanaged by the Allies.

[Sugar]

Well well. Disrupting Axis Barbarossa timetable and increasing USSR R&D and unit spending seems like an clear allied benefit to me

Of course it is, but still not enough to make them competitive; and also of course you'll have to achieve those 2 hits at least. It's clearly not gamebreaking and everyone knows the downsides and how to counter.

Bottomline is that Uber diplo done right is a good tool in the Allied toolbox.

No, it`s a desperate tool. Better to cause losses in France and to stop the Axis in Libya, hardly to achieve with uber-diplo going on. I wouldn`t recommend uber unless you desperately need a victory in a tourney, otherwise you`d better improve your tact. and strat. abilities.

Don't see it being a thing on the Axis side unless dreadfully mismanaged by the Allies.

We both know, Germany can much easier afford the chits than GB. If I'm rightly judging uber, major diplo on Axis` side is also hurting GB more; the only downside is that it's more or less a dead race to influence SU, especially if it`s preventing them from getting Spain.

But I admit, I could be wrong; someone has to test it out I guess.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

I guess we all got your point already.

[room]

To entirely link the military budget of a nation on its diplo status si a bit silly but there is a reasonable argument that the closer they feel to war, the more they prepare. Maybe SU could get 20% plus 1% per diplo % towards the allies (maxed at 100% ofc).

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Well well. Disrupting Axis Barbarossa timetable and increasing USSR R&D and unit spending seems like an clear allied benefit to me

Of course it is, but still not enough to make them competitive; and also of course you'll have to achieve those 2 hits at least. It's clearly not gamebreaking and everyone knows the downsides and how to counter.

Bottomline is that Uber diplo done right is a good tool in the Allied toolbox.

No, it`s a desperate tool. Better to cause losses in France and to stop the Axis in Libya, hardly to achieve with uber-diplo going on. I wouldn`t recommend uber unless you desperately need a victory in a tourney, otherwise you`d better improve your tact. and strat. abilities.

Don't see it being a thing on the Axis side unless dreadfully mismanaged by the Allies.

We both know, Germany can much easier afford the chits than GB. If I'm rightly judging uber, major diplo on Axis` side is also hurting GB more; the only downside is that it's more or less a dead race to influence SU, especially if it`s preventing them from getting Spain.

But I admit, I could be wrong; someone has to test it out I guess.

Not clear cut as one would think in terms of available income. As long as France is still around, Germany is quite poor. If Germany goes on Diplo offence at the at the start then allies have the edge. If Germany goes on the diplo offensive post-France, the UK might struggle to ramp up its diplo chits but... its also late to diplo which mitigates the potential benefits. The USSR already had time to put its MPP to use and the mobilisation will soon start to ramp up again.

The ripple effect of successfully kick-starting USSR tech research are more consequential than a bit more German unit loss in France or holding on a turn or two more. My inferior unit management aside, I demonstrated that the UK could still uberdiplo and have a substantial offensive punch in NA. I put you at the helm of my force post France and you win vs Axis Sugar 60% of the time. It's a viable strat alright.

[Sugar]

You forgot to take into account I didn't fully counter, instead I took the chance to gamble myself. But it`s not worth argueing, I guess we both agree it's not a gamebreaking strategy, and everybody's free to choose.

a bit more German unit loss in France

Don`t underestimate the effects of maybe 2 missing units, highly experienced at best, let`s say a tank and a bomber. It`s not about the MPPs, it could also take one more turn.

[VirtuaKim]

So had the USSR get influenced and attack me in an MP game in May 1940, the turn after France fell.

That seems... extreme. What is the counter strategy to this? Pretty sure I'm dead now, despite having a very successful run up to this point...

So, I guess that game was against me (just surrendered). I did not read all the posts here though due to time restraints.

Some explanation. Some better player (than me) did something similar to me so I thought I'd be worth a try. UK and France invested heavily in diplomacy with Russia. Worked rather well. Nonetheless, I wouldn't recommend it. Russia enters the war weak and without the Baltics. UK is fragile too due to missing tech and probably loses Africa. Altaris is a better player than me and understands the game better, so I was always on the defense with Russia and UK. Russians had infantry 3, industrial 3 and still nothing worked out. Russian could hardly attack an Italian unit. Russian winter and Siberians come at the start of 1942 anyway, so no help either.

Russia is far too weak for that move, so I don't see any advantage in it. Germany can counter with whatever it has and still advance. Later, the Germans just go into attrition mode and kill so many points while gaining exp that the Russian has almost no freedom to do anything.

I am a bit disappointed that such an extraordinary diplomacy event leads to a rather boring outcome. In any case: Well played, Altaris, well played! Please understand that I am battered enough.

Please let me know if you have any advice or questions.


P.S.: Does anyone have a decent strategy against the allies blocking the Norwegian convoy line and sinking 40pp each turn?