Tanks losses due to "accident" - why?

[brian.here@yahoo.com]

Most of my German tanks are lost because during battle they retreat and then they have what is called an "accident." I have lost hardly any as "killed." I still win the battles (it is still June). Does anyone know why so many tanks are lost due to this retreat then accident action?
Should I adjust the retreat percentage? It looks like my panzers will be widdled away to nothing due to accidents.

Thank you!

[lancer]

Hi brain,

Tanks accumulate mileage and suffer mechanical breakdowns (p.195 of the manual under 'Wear and Tear').

This is separate, however, to 'accidents' which are a feature of the combat resolution system.

Vic will have to answer this one as it's part of the underlying game engine. Whether they occur randomly or there are contributing factors I'm not sure.

I'd exercise a degree of patience as he's busy with his new game (Shadow Empires - Scifi) and only occasionally drops by the forums.

Cheers,
Cameron (Designer)

[Vic]

Hi,

If a tank is in involved in combat there is a small chance it will be taken out of action due to other reasons than regular exchange of fire.

Combat is a nasty business, especially for the rather sensitive heavy tracked equipment as tanks. During combat tanks are often traversing much more difficult terrain than the roads they use during regular movement. A tank could drive over a mine, slide into a ditch, suffer a mechanical breakdown, get caught up in a local counteroffensive while it has run out of fuel or ammo causing the crew to abandon the tank.

Furthermore it models freak enemy successes in taking out tanks or panicking their crews by unconventional means (i.e circumstances where armour thickness and range play no role because enemy is literally on top of tank or disabled the tracks).

It is an amalgam rule that models all those diverse kind of reasons that tanks might get lost during combat engagement.

Gameplay wise this rule serves to make you use your panzers as a precision tool and not as a hammer. If you use your 'surgical' knife as a hammer repeatedly it will slowly go blunt. Furthermore it avoids unrealistic invincibility where every single tank can just kill multiple dozensfold of other tanks or a thousandfold of infantry.

There is a chance on an accident every time a tank 'individual' scores a serious hit (KILL or RETREAT) on an enemy target.

Hope this clears things up a bit on this rule.

Best wishes,
Vic

[brian.here@yahoo.com]

Thank you Cameron and thank you Vic. I appreciate you getting back with me so quickly especially while you work on Shadow Empires (Vic).

The feedback makes sense. I like Vic how you describe why it is happening ("Combat is a nasty business...") as it helps with immersion into the game. Oh, and what a game and what immersion you guys have created!

I can't thank you enough for creating such a wonderful game. I also, thoroughly enjoy the reams of statistics that are tracked each turn. I am a numbers guy so it really helps.

BTW - is there a tab in the statistic report that tracks the fuel allocated from the interior each turn (besides the logistics report each turn)? I know it does for each Army Group, but I was wondering if I could see something like:
6.22 25,000 bbls
6.26 22,000 bbls
6.30 19,800 bbls

[Khanti]

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi,

If a tank is in involved in combat there is a small chance it will be taken out of action due to other reasons than regular exchange of fire.

(...)

There is a chance on an accident every time a tank 'individual' scores a serious hit (KILL or RETREAT) on an enemy target.

Hope this clears things up a bit on this rule.

Best wishes,
Vic

This chance is not small. In fact from my observations chance is exactly 50%.

Well, it's not a problem of this game, it is in ALL Vic's games [;)]

You can look at the editor. Go to SFTypes. Check SFT Statistics 2. Look for line ChanceOnDeathIfMakeHit.

For all infantry based units it says 0% and none of them ever will be accidentally removed from play.
For all armor based units it says .05%.

But it's not 5%. It's de facto 50%.
To have it like 5% you need to edit every armor SFT to .005%.

I did it for my own copy of Vic's games and that works fine.

The other subject is mechanical breakdown of units (not in combat). For that part you have field maintenance for one turn (being idle).

[ernieschwitz]

Well, it's not a problem of this game, it is in ALL Vic's games

No it's not. Advanced Tactics Gold does not have this problem

[Khanti]

Strange thing but you're right. This feature was added after ATG. Thanks for pointing this out.

[mikematotski]

ORIGINAL: Khanti

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi,

If a tank is in involved in combat there is a small chance it will be taken out of action due to other reasons than regular exchange of fire.

(...)

There is a chance on an accident every time a tank 'individual' scores a serious hit (KILL or RETREAT) on an enemy target.

Hope this clears things up a bit on this rule.

Best wishes,
Vic

This chance is not small. In fact from my observations chance is exactly 50%.

Well, it's not a problem of this game, it is in ALL Vic's games [;)]

You can look at the editor. Go to SFTypes. Check SFT Statistics 2. Look for line ChanceOnDeathIfMakeHit.

For all infantry based units it says 0% and none of them ever will be accidentally removed from play.
For all armor based units it says .05%.

But it's not 5%. It's de facto 50%.
To have it like 5% you need to edit every armor SFT to .005%.

I did it for my own copy of Vic's games and that works fine.

The other subject is mechanical breakdown of units (not in combat). For that part you have field maintenance for one turn (being idle).

Hi

Im new to this game and read through some of this posts. I can see that a subject is up here about breking down tanks, is this figures accident every time a tank 'individual' scores a serious hit (KILL or RETREAT) on an enemy target = 50% correct.
I cant find where to look at the this figure you mentioned in your posts, can you explain how to change ChanceOnDeathIfMakeHit.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers
Mikematotski

[mikematotski]

ORIGINAL: Khanti

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi,

If a tank is in involved in combat there is a small chance it will be taken out of action due to other reasons than regular exchange of fire.

(...)

There is a chance on an accident every time a tank 'individual' scores a serious hit (KILL or RETREAT) on an enemy target.

Hope this clears things up a bit on this rule.

Best wishes,
Vic

This chance is not small. In fact from my observations chance is exactly 50%.

Well, it's not a problem of this game, it is in ALL Vic's games [;)]

You can look at the editor. Go to SFTypes. Check SFT Statistics 2. Look for line ChanceOnDeathIfMakeHit.

For all infantry based units it says 0% and none of them ever will be accidentally removed from play.
For all armor based units it says .05%.

But it's not 5%. It's de facto 50%.
To have it like 5% you need to edit every armor SFT to .005%.

I did it for my own copy of Vic's games and that works fine.

The other subject is mechanical breakdown of units (not in combat). For that part you have field maintenance for one turn (being idle).

Hi guys

Anone know how to change the parameter ChanceOnDeathIfMakeHit? I tried to find it but no luck.
Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Mike

[Khanti]

First: do you have Editor enabled in game?
Second: when you start scenario you can: start game, edit or simple editor.

Use EDIT.

Then go to the top, click SFT (editor of troops), go to right STF Types table.
There is number 7 Light Tank. It does not matter what is it - its' ARMOR, so it counts.

Click on statistics 2 of that item.

And the rest was written earlier.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Khanti

First: do you have Editor enabled in game?
Second: when you start scenario you can: start game, edit or simple editor.

Use EDIT.

Then go to the top, click SFT (editor of troops), go to right STF Types table.
There is number 7 Light Tank. It does not matter what is it - its' ARMOR, so it counts.

Click on statistics 2 of that item.

And the rest was written earlier.

I should consider an appropriate 'accident' rate for this tin can I added...

Klink, Oberst

[Khanti]

AFAIK the whole game uses the same accident rate. The problem is it is miscalculated (too high to be real thing).
You can consider lowering all tables.

5% is .005% in Vic's games.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Khanti

AFAIK the whole game uses the same accident rate. The problem is it is miscalculated (too high to be real thing).
You can consider lowering all tables.

5% is .005% in Vic's games.

Dziekuje! I am still experimenting and adding some minor-Axis tanks for tests. I am glad I found some open-source graphics... I am too lazy (not skilled) in map making and graphics stuff; but good at tutorials (I think). Glad more people come back to Vic's masterpieces.

Klink, Oberst

[nikdav]

Perhaps Vic consider all the tanks as "Panthers" and so i think 50% is too optimistic, during 1943 75% of all PzV Panther were lost for accidents [&:]

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: nikdav

Perhaps Vic consider all the tanks as "Panthers" and so i think 50% is too optimistic, during 1943 75% of all PzV Panther were lost for accidents [&:]

Well... it wasn't that bad. Yes, 'we' threw them into battle (Kursk?) too early. We should consider the 'accident' rate as... 'prone to break down' rate. Anyway. You like my tin can I added?

Klink, Oberst

[mikematotski]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

ORIGINAL: Khanti

AFAIK the whole game uses the same accident rate. The problem is it is miscalculated (too high to be real thing).
You can consider lowering all tables.

5% is .005% in Vic's games.

Dziekuje! I am still experimenting and adding some minor-Axis tanks for tests. I am glad I found some open-source graphics... I am too lazy (not skilled) in map making and graphics stuff; but good at tutorials (I think). Glad more people come back to Vic's masterpieces.

Klink, Oberst

Hi
Thanks for you answer. Is it possible to have different rate between the veichles values.
Are the program use the general value or the veichle specific?

Cheers

[Oberst_Klink]

I am checking this out this afternoon. I also noticed a mistake in the formula table...
Att soft should be: 10+cal./mm)/4+speed(km/h)/2, not 20.

Anyway; I am still playing around with the editor and I hope I can produce a test scenario
where instead of 7.Flieger.Div an Italian Arm.Div will be ready at the Volhov. Naturally,
I'll share the .LIB files and all the other stuff, too.

Klink, Oberst

[Khanti]

ORIGINAL: mikematotski

Hi
Thanks for you answer. Is it possible to have different rate between the veichles values.
Are the program use the general value or the veichle specific?

Cheers

It uses item specific stats. So you can adjust any value for all SFTs. So yes every tank can have different accident rate.
Anyway *I* hate when programm kills my tanks of no reason so I tend to use flat 5% for all (.005%).

[Khanti]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
You like my tin can I added?

Yes. Very handsome.
Gute Arbeit.

[mikematotski]

ORIGINAL: Khanti

ORIGINAL: mikematotski

Hi
Thanks for you answer. Is it possible to have different rate between the veichles values.
Are the program use the general value or the veichle specific?

Cheers

It uses item specific stats. So you can adjust any value for all SFTs. So yes every tank can have different accident rate.
Anyway *I* hate when programm kills my tanks of no reason so I tend to use flat 5% for all (.005%).

Hi

Thanks for the answer.

I think the soviet armor as a armor weapon was tactical used a little different than the germans. The Soviet was not so keen that the armors survived a battle and they trusted to get new armored vehicles produced and therefore handled armor units different than German armored units. For the germans they were very keen to have the armor vheicles survived and to be used to fight another day due to there limited production capacity. So for the soviet maybe the factor 50% is correct while its a bit high for germans while for the germans its SFT value should be much lower.

Cheers