May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Fury Games has now signed with Matrix Games, and we are working together on the next Strategic Command. Will use the Slitherine PBEM++ server for asynchronous multi-player.

Moderators: MOD_Strategic_Command_3, Fury Software

PvtBenjamin
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:57 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by PvtBenjamin »

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ

In the future if you disagree with a suggestion just state why supported by facts. The personal attacks questioning a persons intellect, game playing ability and courage are of a person of poor character.



KorutZelva
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:35 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by KorutZelva »

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ

In the future if you disagree with a suggestion just state why supported by facts. The personal attacks questioning a persons intellect, game playing ability and courage are of a person of poor character.


That's just the thing. Saying a thing is impossible and 'backing it up' with a game where he only had 4 diplo chits on is the same as 'It's impossible to defend egypt, I had 2 garrison and a HQ AND THE GERMANS PANZERS JUST WALKED ALL OVER THEM'.

Obviously I disagree with your opinion, from experience in dealing with the said situation (from both sides). For all your talk on facts, you're very much like the bible Thomas and didn't accept examples from AARs to show that the allied diplo situation is not hopeless, hence the idea in showing you first hand.

The reason you are refusing is that your argument has no (chicken) leg to stand on. [;)] My initial point stands: you mishandled one game and then cried wolf.
PvtBenjamin
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:57 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by PvtBenjamin »

Ok one last time. I'm winning the game so its not really hishandled. I (and others) think being able to invest so much in major diplo warps the game. The game effectively becomes a battle of diplo chits vs research strategy etc. If you disagree that is fine.

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?

Honestly I haven't invested the time to be proficient at the Axis, I'm retired and am lazy. I am much better at the Allies so my challenge stands. That said I don't want to knowingly engage in a game that each side is going to invest significantly on major diplo, I find it trivial.

KorutZelva
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:35 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by KorutZelva »

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Ok one last time. I'm winning the game so its not really hishandled. I (and others) think being able to invest so much in major diplo warps the game. The game effectively becomes a battle of diplo chits vs research strategy etc. If you disagree that is fine.

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?

Honestly I haven't invested the time to be proficient at the Axis, I'm retired and am lazy. I am much better at the Allies so my challenge stands. That said I don't want to knowingly engage in a game that each side is going to invest significantly on major diplo, I find it trivial.


So it's 'impossible to stop' but you apparently stopped it yourself. Frankly that's hysterical. [:D]

Diplo is balanced. The end.
AltarisGreyhawke
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:49 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by AltarisGreyhawke »

I wasn't really arguing originally whether it's "balanced" or not, it's just stupid in the context of WW2. But then again, this isn't really a great war simulator to begin with, so, meh, whatever. It's more like Axis & Allies Extra-Extra Edition.
PvtBenjamin
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:57 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by PvtBenjamin »

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Ok one last time. I'm winning the game so its not really hishandled. I (and others) think being able to invest so much in major diplo warps the game. The game effectively becomes a battle of diplo chits vs research strategy etc. If you disagree that is fine.

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?

Honestly I haven't invested the time to be proficient at the Axis, I'm retired and am lazy. I am much better at the Allies so my challenge stands. That said I don't want to knowingly engage in a game that each side is going to invest significantly on major diplo, I find it trivial.


So it's 'impossible to stop' but you apparently stopped it yourself. Frankly that's hysterical. [:D]

Diplo is balanced. The end.




You didn't answer my question.
KorutZelva
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:35 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by KorutZelva »

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ did you read my post. It is impossible to defend against as Allies.

Say what?

You forgot to retroactively change the text on that one.
PvtBenjamin
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:57 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by PvtBenjamin »

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?


Above is the question. Please no your an idiot, I'm great at the game, your a chicken straight answer to the question.
User avatar
Elessar2
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:35 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by Elessar2 »

Defenders of the strategy really need to explicitly outline exactly what form a diplomacy "chit" would have taken in the actual war.

I think Diplo should be turned off, and more decision events added to compensate. Right now chits all happen in a vague contextless vacuum.

[Dec '39]
Some discussions have been made between Russian culinary experts and yours. Stalin wants 150 MPP's worth of brie goat haggis, to be delivered over the next 6 turns (25/turn), in exchange for going +5-15% Allies. Do you agree (YES) to said trade of said delightful Scottish delicacies, or (NO) refuse the offer?
User avatar
crispy131313
Posts: 2124
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:37 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by crispy131313 »

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Defenders of the strategy really need to explicitly outline exactly what form a diplomacy "chit" would have taken in the actual war.

I think Diplo should be turned off, and more decision events added to compensate. Right now chits all happen in a vague contextless vacuum.


If only there was scenario already available like this [8|]

But in all seriousness we will not see an overhaul of the diplomatic game. At some point the designer's need to focus on next game to stay in business. We have had 1.5 years of tweaks already.
Fall Weiss II - SC3 Mod
tm.asp?m=4183873

AltarisGreyhawke
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:49 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by AltarisGreyhawke »

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Defenders of the strategy really need to explicitly outline exactly what form a diplomacy "chit" would have taken in the actual war.

I think Diplo should be turned off, and more decision events added to compensate. Right now chits all happen in a vague contextless vacuum.

[Dec '39]
Some discussions have been made between Russian culinary experts and yours. Stalin wants 150 MPP's worth of brie goat haggis, to be delivered over the next 6 turns (25/turn), in exchange for going +5-15% Allies. Do you agree (YES) to said trade of said delightful Scottish delicacies, or (NO) refuse the offer?

Amen to this...
User avatar
Taxman66
Posts: 2213
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:28 pm
Location: Columbia, MD. USA

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by Taxman66 »

Even if (major power) Diplo is balanced (* A premise I don't currently agree with *), it has 2 other issues/flaws:

1. It skews to whichever side implements it first; which in and of itself is reasonable but this is combined with #2 below.

2. There is only 1 valid strategic choice if your opponent initiates it; and that is to counter. Failure to do so is disaster. This supersedes any other plan(s) you may have.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
Sugar
Posts: 940
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by Sugar »

There is only 1 valid strategic choice if your opponent initiates it; and that is to counter.

And the reason for this is, hits are too high. Up to possibly 30%, and that's gamechanging.
AltarisGreyhawke
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:49 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by AltarisGreyhawke »

There's an insanely easy fix to all this though... just limit the number of diplo chits for majors. Like, this is so ridiculously simple, I don't get the need to even argue it. But yeah, it is what it is, I'll know what to watch for next time.
User avatar
Taxman66
Posts: 2213
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:28 pm
Location: Columbia, MD. USA

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by Taxman66 »

Sugar, my understanding is that major powers diplo chit hits are not subject to the small chance of a double effect. So no 30%, but you can still get 15% (iirc).

Even till there is no other valid counter.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
Sugar
Posts: 940
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by Sugar »

Yes, you're right; then the jackpot is to achieve a 15% hit at the first chit on a major. Still gambling.
PvtBenjamin
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:57 pm

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by PvtBenjamin »

ORIGINAL: AltarisGreyhawke

There's an insanely easy fix to all this though... just limit the number of diplo chits for majors. Like, this is so ridiculously simple, I don't get the need to even argue it. But yeah, it is what it is, I'll know what to watch for next time.



Yes its that easy.
KorutZelva
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:35 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by KorutZelva »

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin
Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?


Above is the question. Please no your an idiot, I'm great at the game, your a chicken straight answer to the question.

It's mathematically possible but unlikely. Provided the allies picked the events to keep USSR readiness high. The average diplo hit for a major would be 11% (IIRC). At 15% chance to trigger the hit, it would take 6,66 turns on average to fire. To wipe off all USSR readiness post-france you'd need about 4 diplo hit. To wipe everything it would take almost 2 years (provided USSR readiness doesn't go up in the interval, which it will).

To get it to 0% in any reliable fashion, the Axis would have to score hits when France is still around. I suspect the Axis did in your game and these hits were entirely avoidable while you had the diplochit advantage (and then) parity.
Sugar
Posts: 940
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by Sugar »

But you`re not playing this sort of game to get average chances, KZ. It`s a high risk gamble, the success might be huge, and if you don't succeed you`re screwed.

Allthough I`m not against it (would also be very difficult to entice Franco), I understand many players don't expect such opportunities in a strategy game. At least it doesn't tell anything about your abilities, if you win you just proved Fortuna was on your side (allthough this is not meant to dishonor your abilities at all), or your opponent was caught barefooted.
KorutZelva
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:35 am

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

Post by KorutZelva »

ORIGINAL: Sugar

But you`re not playing this sort of game to get average chances, KZ. It`s a high risk gamble, the success might be huge, and if you don't succeed you`re screwed.

Allthough I`m not against it (would also be very difficult to entice Franco), I understand many players don't expect such opportunities in a strategy game. At least it doesn't tell anything about your abilities, if you win you just proved Fortuna was on your side (allthough this is not meant to dishonor your abilities at all), or your opponent was caught barefooted.

It's like the S&I race, you can make it a focus to get on top of it but you can strike out and see the opponent surge ahead even if invest with just one country because of lucky breakthrough. Luck is everywhere but you can manage it.

Personally, I make my play based on the average chances. I don't do it with the purpose of having the USSR or USA join in 1940, such drastic result would happen when someone responds horrendously incorrectly or some godlike stroke of luck. Sure you can do it for the surprise factor (a lot of player have trouble handling it) but you can make an opportunity strike if there's an opening. You can maneuver into a position where the average odds will get you two hits. For the Allies, just two hits can almost double USSR income and is a realistic goal.

There's the right way to go about it too. I find it's better start a couple of key tech before your diplo push, delaying advance aircraft 5 turn could cost thousands in extra damage. [:)]
Post Reply

Return to “Strategic Command WWII War in Europe”