Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and the ones I can't bear

[Ridcully70]

If that's the case then Mr Beevor would really hate Lord Of The Rings because none of it actually happened in real life!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Coming from someone such as Antony Beevor, this is a really disappointing article.

You're right. The article smacks of 'it's all rubbish-everything you enjoyed or thought you enjoyed is rubbish' bitterness. If he really feels that way then he needs to fine another line of work.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Thats funny, because its FROM Beevor that Ive learned that Montgomery was a credit-grabbing, over-promise/under-deliver roll-eyes kind of guy.
Now thats in no way to diminish his role in the desert or the Brits conduct in the war.
Actually come to think of it Beevor also comfirmed my belief that Ernest Hemmingway was a class A dick. Such a pompous ass.

Meh. Beevor was late to the party in his opinion of Montgomery. Many of Monty's contemporaries felt that way and made their opinions known back in the day. Beevor just latched on to these old animosities and regurgitated them. Same with Hemingway.

[wodin]

I remember him saying Stalingrad (German film) was good, better than enemy at the gates which was the film he was being asked about.

Actually never realised that film was based on a book, until just recently started reading this book that sounded just like the film! Turns out the book had been out awhile, it's also very dark, intense and even hallucinatory.

Stalingrad the loneliest death by C Fromm

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I remember him saying Stalingrad (German film) was good, better than enemy at the gates which was the film he was being asked about.

I've seen both, and he got at least that much right.

[Agathosdaimon]

a good article indeed, i didnt know there was a movie about the battle of river plate.

what is TMTSNBN?

what would be the best WW1 movie do you think? Gallipoli, Passchendaele, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Beneath Hill 60 (i liked that one alot)
i wonder what he thinks of Waterloo 1970 apart from this and War and Peace in its various film versions- i am still waiting for a proper Napoleonic war epic that - can anyone think of any or is it really that scant for such a significant period?

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

a good article indeed, i didnt know there was a movie about the battle of river plate.

what is TMTSNBN?

what would be the best WW1 movie do you think? Gallipoli, Passchendaele, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Beneath Hill 60 (i liked that one alot)
i wonder what he thinks of Waterloo 1970 apart from this and War and Peace in its various film versions- i am still waiting for a proper Napoleonic war epic that - can anyone think of any or is it really that scant for such a significant period?

The movie that should not be named?!
I bet it's about two dudes loving the same gal, oh and about a suprise attack in the Pacific... and then another one...

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: shikai

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

a good article indeed, i didnt know there was a movie about the battle of river plate.

what is TMTSNBN?

what would be the best WW1 movie do you think? Gallipoli, Passchendaele, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Beneath Hill 60 (i liked that one alot)
i wonder what he thinks of Waterloo 1970 apart from this and War and Peace in its various film versions- i am still waiting for a proper Napoleonic war epic that - can anyone think of any or is it really that scant for such a significant period?

The movie that should not be named?!
I bet it's about two dudes loving the same gal, oh and about a suprise attack in the Pacific... and then another one...

TMTSNBN? Oh, the horror!

[Orm]

I've been thinking... shocking really... anyway.... I've been thinking, what if saving Ryan had a love story instead of the landing part? Private Ryan and Captain Miller are in love with the same woman. And in the end the girl falls in love with Private Ryan. Then the movie skips straight from romance in England to the part where Captain Miller is tasked with saving Ryan, the man that 'stole' his love. And then the movie goes on as it did in reality. This, I think, wouldn't be far from how Hollywood thinks. And if they made that movie instead. Then wouldn't it have been even worse that that TMTSNBM?

What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I've been thinking... shocking really... anyway.... I've been thinking, what if saving Ryan had a love story instead of the landing part? Private Ryan and Captain Miller are in love with the same woman. And in the end the girl falls in love with Private Ryan. Then the movie skips straight from romance in England to the part where Captain Miller is tasked with saving Ryan, the man that 'stole' his love. And then the movie goes on as it did in reality. This, I think, wouldn't be far from how Hollywood thinks. And if they made that movie instead. Then wouldn't it have been even worse that that TMTSNBM?

What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

Hollywood would make the woman a French Resistance fighter captured by the Nazis (not ordinary Germans - Nazi SS storm-troopers).

[ezzler]

What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

i thought there were four standout scenes. Most of the rest, did not care for.

But the four -

1. The landing . Which is awesome. Just awesome.
2. The sniper scene.
3. When the wall falls down and the resting Germans are as surprised as the resting Americans.
4. The moment they find Ryan during an ambush.

5. Honourable mentions - the dog tag scene and the knife fight which the German wins, then just walks out of the building and ignores the other yank clerk.

Shame the premise of the film was so shaky to begin with. It would have been very epic without the mush.

As a brit, i was surprised there was a 'fuss' about no brits in SPR. it came after The patriot made all English murderers. And the enigma monstrosity of a movie. It was mostly newspaper American bashing.
there are no Americans or Canadians in the battle Of Britain. Americans never complained.
Come to think of it, not in Zulu either. Did Beevor mention Zulu? Its the ultimate film to disdain these days. Despite being fairly accurate with the history, if not the true characters.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: ezz

...there are no Americans or Canadians in the battle Of Britain. Americans never complained.

warspite1

In Battle of Britain the Canadian actor Christopher Plummer specifically asked to wear the Canada flash on his uniform. There was, iirc, a guy with a New Zealand flash and of course the Poles are shown and the Czechs mentioned. That there is no American character (and many other countries pilots) in the film is hardly surprising given the number of volunteers involved (the Australians contribution perhaps the most lacking - I don't recall an Aussie flash) and it would be impossible to show them all, but they are honoured at the end.

In the Roll Call at end of film (a beautiful piece of music) all pilots - Aussies, Americans, Belgians et al - are recognised. This is a nice touch and is appropriate - the film is about the Battle of Britain after all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLDZkypBHnw



This [recognising other countries contributions] was not the case with Saving Private Ryan. But, as I've said many times, there was simply no need to do this in that film. SPR was not a film about D-Day, it was a story unique to the US following a rule that came in after the death of the Sullivan brothers aboard USS Juneau. Okay, it was set during the events of D-Day but not about D-Day.

The disappointing thing was the mention of Monty. Don't mention British, Canadian and other Allied contribution? Fine and absolutely no problem for the reason mentioned previously. But by the same token why the gratuitous, totally unnecessary slagging off of Monty? A bit pathetic from Spielberg to be honest - and he did similar in Band of Brothers - and as for the hideous, contrived scene where the English guy is talking cockney rhyming slang, that has to be one of the most embarrassing scenes in any war film ever. It would not have been out of place in Pearl Harbor - yes it was that amateurish. Its a good job that Band of Brothers is otherwise unremittingly excellent and this nonsense (such a small part of the film) can be forgiven. In Saving Private Ryan the Monty thing is hardly the end of the world - its just unnecessary.

[Agathosdaimon]

what i like in SPR is a detail that i only learnt about later - that the soldier with his hands up that the americans shoot after they have ascended from the beach - that he wasnt speaking german, but czech instead, saying "Please don’t shoot me! I am not German, I am Czech, I didn’t kill anyone! I am Czech!"

[wodin]

I liked the fact BoB didn't wash over the fact we also killed prisoners.

Was reading a memoir the other month, a British one about how he witnessed several Germans who had surrendered all sitting down along a grass verge with backs to a hedge, an Allied tank then suddenly pulls off the road only to ride over all their legs. Unlikely any of those survived.

If you win a War you don't get done for War crimes and have to face justice.

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: wodin

If you win a War you don't get done for War crimes and have to face justice.

Especially if you don't set up industrialized extermination factories.

[rico21]

Wodin, UP844, you are here too. [&o][:D]

[wodin]

True, but I'm talking about combat soldiers etc. You get into who killed the most innocents then good old Stalin would come on top there!

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: wodin

If you win a War you don't get done for War crimes and have to face justice.

Especially if you don't set up industrialized extermination factories.

[wodin]

Rico, you still not got it?


I'm everywhere mate I'm looking over your shoulder right now.....

ORIGINAL: rico21

Wodin, UP844, you are here too. [&o][:D]

[UP844]

As regards to combat troops killing prisoners or enemy soldiers attempting to surrender, it often happened in the heat of battle and I am sure there are countless episodes we will never know about. Labelling the Allies as war criminals looks a bit eccessive.

By the way, did you ever wonder why Allied troops - unlike the representative of the Herrenrasse - were often slowed by cheering civilians? [:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
In Saving Private Ryan the Monty thing is hardly the end of the world - its just unnecessary.

Meh. It's what guys in warzones do-play amateur tactician and 'what if' the battle(s) that they're involved in. What they bandied about was a common point of view. Admittedly, their view was self-centered and a little myopic, but that's what all guys in all uniforms do in their '100 yards of Hell'.