Naval, Air, ASW Combat

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Edward75
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Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Edward75 »

I have been playing this game for a long time, but I can’t understand how everything works here. Probably this has been discussed many times, but please suggest my questions!

Naval. (except for crew Exp)
1. Is there any difference when mount gun has 2, 3 or 4 guns? What is advantage?
2. How does advantage in quantity and class of ships?
3. What is advantage of radar?

Air. (except for pilot Exp)
1. How does advantage in number and type of planes? For example, 5 planes are fighting vs 30 planes, and they shoot down few enemy planes, but they do not have any loss. How is this possible in reality?

ASW. (except for crew Exp)
1. How does advantage in quantity and class of ships?
2. Why in ASW TF if there are 4 ships or many escorts, there is always only one escort ship attacking submarine?

Are there any formulas to understand how this all works?
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: Edward75

I have been playing this game for a long time, but I can’t understand how everything works here. Probably this has been discussed many times, but please suggest my questions!

Naval. (except for crew Exp)
1. Is there any difference when mount gun has 2, 3 or 4 guns? What is advantage? Probably a higher chance of hitting with a four-gun salvo than with a two-gun salvo
2. How does advantage in quantity and class of ships? Sorry, could you please rephrase the question?
3. What is advantage of radar? Less chance to be surprised by the enemy and higher chance to surprise enemy > changes the odds which side may "cross the T" and/or the chances a "long lance attack" (initial torpedo attack without retaliatory counter-fire) occurs

Air. (except for pilot Exp)
1. How does advantage in number and type of planes? For example, 5 planes are fighting vs 30 planes, and they shoot down few enemy planes, but they do not have any loss. How is this possible in reality?
Advantageous tactical situation - like 5 planes diving out of the sun on the rear elements of the enemy's formation, downing a few planes in this single pass and then diving away at hight speed to escape / hide in clouds.

ASW. (except for crew Exp)
1. How does advantage in quantity and class of ships? Only other thing that seems to matter is the number of ASW weapons per ship.
2. Why in ASW TF if there are 4 ships or many escorts, there is always only one escort ship attacking submarine? Not true, attacks by multiple ships of the TF can and do happen, just not each and every time.

Are there any formulas to understand how this all works? The code is not public and "reverse-engineering" from observed results is dicey - there is a lot of randomness in Gary Grigsby games.
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Yaab
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Yaab »

"Are there any formulas to understand how this all works?"

To paraphrase John Wayne from "True Grit":

-We ain't got no code either!
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Edward75

I have been playing this game for a long time, but I can’t understand how everything works here. Probably this has been discussed many times, but please suggest my questions!

Naval. (except for crew Exp)
1. Is there any difference when mount gun has 2, 3 or 4 guns? What is advantage?

For the same number of guns firing, it makes no difference how many turrets they are in. But if a turret gets knocked out, you lose the number of guns in that turret. IRL, the reason for putting more guns in a turret was to reduce the armour needed to protect them. I.E., if four guns are in one turret you have only two turret sides, but if you have four guns in two turrets, you have four turret sides. More guns per turret is considered a defensive advantage because of the armour economy, while having more turrets is considered an offensive advantage because loss of a turret leaves more guns still firing at the enemy.

2. How does advantage in quantity and class of ships?

Ships have differing advantages and disadvantages depending on their design. For example, US and British CA designs were nicely balanced in terms of speed, armour, armament and seakeeping qualities. The IJN tended to design CAs with higher speeds, less armour and more armament, which made them top-heavy and more likely to capsize if damaged. The game tries to model some of this with things like the durability rating and number of damage control parties. Look at the details of you ships and try to pick the best ones for the job you are sending them on.

3. What is advantage of radar?
Radar provided earlier detection but the game still requires that your ships see the enemy to confirm identity before they open fire. So the advantage of radar is that the ship is less likely to be surprised and may shoot more accurately as the engagement progresses.

Air. (except for pilot Exp)
1. How does advantage in number and type of planes? For example, 5 planes are fighting vs 30 planes, and they shoot down few enemy planes, but they do not have any loss. How is this possible in reality?
In reality, a dogfight happens between two aircraft and more would only get in each others' way. But if you have more planes than the enemy you can run him low on fuel and ammo with a series of engagements and then the extra aircraft can shoot him down easier (if they can catch him before he departs for home).

ASW. (except for crew Exp)
1. How does advantage in quantity and class of ships?

ASW ratings for ships are based on the number of weapons they can fire at a submerged sub. After that, the capacity of the magazines to reload those weapons makes a big difference. The game engine also seems to give the Allies extra ASW advantage as time passes and upgrades are done to reflect better SONAR/ASDIC equipment. Even depth charges have improvements in their accuracy rating.


2. Why in ASW TF if there are 4 ships or many escorts, there is always only one escort ship attacking submarine?

As in real life, only one ship made a depth charge attack at a time - multiple ships would damage each other when their depth charges went off. The additional ships increase the chance of keeping contact with the sub after an attack or series of attacks, up to a maximum of four ASW vessels. More than that just get in each others' way, and three ASW vessels offer the best chance of keeping after the sub (the fourth one just has one more set of ammo to use if needed).

Are there any formulas to understand how this all works?
Search for Alfred's posts to get the best explanation of how these things work, but the actual formulas used by the game are a secret.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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JeffroK
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by JeffroK »

AIR
1. Read any Finnish history of the air war against the Soviet Union.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
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Edward75
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Edward75 »

I understand everything. But I'm only interested in one question. Why advantage in game is NOT important!
It is not right. Even 1 plane, ship or Pilot. Even best Exp or skill can not withstand opponent 5 times more. This is very unlikely, but this in game happens often.
Just for example in Naval combat, if 3 ships are fighting against 1 ship. Then for one salvo, 3 ships must respond with 3 salvos. But in game it not happens, like 1 ship vs 1 ship.

Of course, there are no formulas. I just wanted to ask if there are any opinions on this matter!
Dili
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Dili »

You are wrong, reality is not a chess game. You might see a ship and the other side might not even see you.

You might even think you see a ship but it is nothing there.
GetAssista
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Edward75
I understand everything. But I'm only interested in one question. Why advantage in game is NOT important!
It is not right. Even 1 plane, ship or Pilot. Even best Exp or skill can not withstand opponent 5 times more. This is very unlikely, but this in game happens often.
Just for example in Naval combat, if 3 ships are fighting against 1 ship. Then for one salvo, 3 ships must respond with 3 salvos. But in game it not happens, like 1 ship vs 1 ship.

Of course, there are no formulas. I just wanted to ask if there are any opinions on this matter!
You are not taking into account tactical possibilities. WWII engagements are not line battles.
Eg #1: If there are 3 slow ships with shorter range guns, 1 enemy ship can shot them up with impunity assuming it hits with shots. Just maintain effective range and fire away. Same with more advanced fire controls. this is what happens in many surface engagements in 43+
Eg #2: Boom and zoom air attack. If your fighter is faster in dive/climb you can dive to your enemies, shot up one target then climb away and repeat. It does not matter how many slow fighters your enemy has, as long as they cannot catch you. Thunderbolt sweeps ahoy!

Pure numerical advantage is more pronounced in land battles where at some point you compare AV to decide on retreat. Still, when firepower comes into play, AV becomes less meaningful.
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Edward75

I understand everything. But I'm only interested in one question. Why advantage in game is NOT important!
It is not right. Even 1 plane, ship or Pilot. Even best Exp or skill can not withstand opponent 5 times more. This is very unlikely, but this in game happens often.
Just for example in Naval combat, if 3 ships are fighting against 1 ship. Then for one salvo, 3 ships must respond with 3 salvos. But in game it not happens, like 1 ship vs 1 ship.

Of course, there are no formulas. I just wanted to ask if there are any opinions on this matter!
Read the Battlecruiser clash at the Battle of Jutland. The British had more Battlecruisers with better speed and bigger guns, but their own smoke from funnel and guns drifted between the two forces and made it hard to target the German BCs.

The Germans also had the advantage of the light with the setting sun making the clouds/fog behind the British ships lighter, thus silhouetting them, while the Germans blended into the darkening skies to the east of them. Thus the Germans shot more accurately and were able to assign ship against ship fire control while the British could only fire at the ships they could see intermittently.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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Lowpe
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Edward75

I understand everything. But I'm only interested in one question. Why advantage in game is NOT important!
It is not right. Even 1 plane, ship or Pilot. Even best Exp or skill can not withstand opponent 5 times more. This is very unlikely, but this in game happens often.
Just for example in Naval combat, if 3 ships are fighting against 1 ship. Then for one salvo, 3 ships must respond with 3 salvos. But in game it not happens, like 1 ship vs 1 ship.

Of course, there are no formulas. I just wanted to ask if there are any opinions on this matter!

Early naval battles is the SRA where incredibly chaotic. Language barriers, operational misunderstandings, night, inexperienced crews and commanders plus hundreds of other variables went into these fights. Even in 1944 lack of perfect knowledge impacted the battles.

Saying the fight is 5-1 is very simplistic and thankfully the engine isn't.

In early 1942 I had three IJN destroyers raid into an ABDA port, encountering the previously detected Hotspur (I recall). Hotspur proceeded to sink all three IJN destroyers....what is not mentioned is perhaps the IJN destroyers shot at each other in the chaos of a night battle... or perhaps avoiding minefields prevented the IJN TF from forming up, -- even though I was harshly treated I thought it was a great battle.[:)]
dave sindel
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by dave sindel »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Edward75

I understand everything. But I'm only interested in one question. Why advantage in game is NOT important!
It is not right. Even 1 plane, ship or Pilot. Even best Exp or skill can not withstand opponent 5 times more. This is very unlikely, but this in game happens often.
Just for example in Naval combat, if 3 ships are fighting against 1 ship. Then for one salvo, 3 ships must respond with 3 salvos. But in game it not happens, like 1 ship vs 1 ship.

Of course, there are no formulas. I just wanted to ask if there are any opinions on this matter!

Early naval battles is the SRA where incredibly chaotic. Language barriers, operational misunderstandings, night, inexperienced crews and commanders plus hundreds of other variables went into these fights. Even in 1944 lack of perfect knowledge impacted the battles.

Saying the fight is 5-1 is very simplistic and thankfully the engine isn't.

In early 1942 I had three IJN destroyers raid into an ABDA port, encountering the previously detected Hotspur (I recall). Hotspur proceeded to sink all three IJN destroyers....what is not mentioned is perhaps the IJN destroyers shot at each other in the chaos of a night battle... or perhaps avoiding minefields prevented the IJN TF from forming up, -- even though I was harshly treated I thought it was a great battle.[:)]

In my view, one of the strengths of this game is the randomness and uncertainty of the combat results we often see. I'm sure all of us have experienced a wide range of emotions while watching a replay movie. I know I have been greatly surprised by some positive outcomes, and just as greatly surprised when my well-laid plans went to hell...
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Edward75
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Edward75 »

I know I have been greatly surprised by some positive outcomes, and just as greatly surprised when my well-laid plans went to hell...

That's it!
If in game it would be as described above, weather conditions, range of guns, etc. But this is not so.
It is possible to make a test, to take same units with same exp. In one TF create 4 ships, and in another 2 ships (or Planes). And result I think will be same. Ships will shoot alternately, as if battle is 1 vs 1. Who will be lucky earlier from random house.
One day I will prove it. I hope that I'm wrong.
RichardAckermann
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by RichardAckermann »

What I tend to criticise myself, is the 1 on 1 combat of TFs. Even if you have 3 or more cover TFs for surface combat, only 2 TFs can combat each other at a time. I do not have the feeling that the other TFs are taken into account during battle.
The actual combat outcome seems fine to me most of the time.
alimentary
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by alimentary »

ORIGINAL: Edward75
And result I think will be same.
Until you have a model that makes a prediction, you will not be able to run a test to check your prediction. I see no such model in evidence.
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Edward75
It is possible to make a test, to take same units with same exp. In one TF create 4 ships, and in another 2 ships (or Planes). And result I think will be same. Ships will shoot alternately, as if battle is 1 vs 1. Who will be lucky earlier from random house.
One day I will prove it. I hope that I'm wrong.
No, the results won't be the same.
You can rerun a test scenario using the fact that 1st day is always clear weather and RNG is resetted on scenario start. Combats on first turn can be noticeably different. I did not do it with ship TFs yet, but had a lot of experience with LCUs and some with airgroups
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

In early 1942 I had three IJN destroyers raid into an ABDA port, encountering the previously detected Hotspur (I recall). Hotspur proceeded to sink all three IJN destroyers....what is not mentioned is perhaps the IJN destroyers shot at each other in the chaos of a night battle... or perhaps avoiding minefields prevented the IJN TF from forming up, -- even though I was harshly treated I thought it was a great battle.[:)]


No, not Hotspur, but Isis; check it better;

Unforgettable...;
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: Edward75

It is possible to make a test, to take same units with same exp. In one TF create 4 ships, and in another 2 ships (or Planes). And result I think will be same. Ships will shoot alternately, as if battle is 1 vs 1. Who will be lucky earlier from random house.

ORIGINAL: RichardAckermann

What I tend to criticise myself, is the 1 on 1 combat of TFs. Even if you have 3 or more cover TFs for surface combat, only 2 TFs can combat each other at a time. I do not have the feeling that the other TFs are taken into account during battle.
The actual combat outcome seems fine to me most of the time.


No; both f you wrong (I'm sorry...)

ships fighting one against the other per time:

It is true that the game engine calculates the firing of a ship only against one other ONLY per time; but it's true as well that only ship in the TF against a TF of three (for example) is given less allowance to fire back, i.e., the three ships TF will fire more volleys than those received by the single ship's TF (simple...);

extend the similar approach to air to air combat;


Richard Ackermann: true that we won't see an engagement of multiple TFs for one side; but it is true that the game tracks the and takes into account that one TF has already been engaged, for example through the OPS points system, thus being greatly disadvanteged when engaged a second time by a seconf TF; in this way the OPS points system, which is key to the understanding and playing of the naval module of the game, simulates multiple simultaneus engagements;
RichardAckermann
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by RichardAckermann »

Maybe. But if you have several japanese TFs, like at GC start in Patani/Singora, I fear the engine will have a lot of trouble managing the DD group to make a torpedo run while the big ships keep the enemy busy. I have my doubts if it is possible at all to include the other TFs actions the right way when they are not part of the combat calculations. Fighting the TFs one by one may miss the possible co-operation of those TFs.
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: RichardAckermann

Maybe. But if you have several japanese TFs, like at GC start in Patani/Singora, I fear the engine will have a lot of trouble managing the DD group to make a torpedo run while the big ships keep the enemy busy. I have my doubts if it is possible at all to include the other TFs actions the right way when they are not part of the combat calculations. Fighting the TFs one by one may miss the possible co-operation of those TFs.

I've fought a lot of battles with multiple TFs involved, especially in two of my recent games. You have to accept the abstraction and learn to use it to simulate these cooperations.

In game you can overwhelm a big TF with may small ones even though they come one at a time. The damage is still cumulative, as is loss of ammo and ops points. Eventually the numbers will have an affect. You can also orchestrate which TFs you'd like to engage first in a number of ways.
ORIGINAL: Edward75

I understand everything. But I'm only interested in one question. Why advantage in game is NOT important!
It is not right. Even 1 plane, ship or Pilot. Even best Exp or skill can not withstand opponent 5 times more. This is very unlikely, but this in game happens often.
Just for example in Naval combat, if 3 ships are fighting against 1 ship. Then for one salvo, 3 ships must respond with 3 salvos. But in game it not happens, like 1 ship vs 1 ship.

Of course, there are no formulas. I just wanted to ask if there are any opinions on this matter!

On the sea there are many factors that impact a combat. When the afore mentioned Isis took out three IJN DDs in one night, she was led by a great commander, had full ammo and ops points, had radar detection, and had night crew experience in the high 70s. It was still an unexpected outcome, but it happens, and it happened in the war as well. Detection is a huge factor in night naval engagements, and even more so in reality. If you don't know where they are you can't hit em.
In this case Isis got in the first shot and it was a critical hit.

In the air small numbers can and do beat bigger numbers, and that also has to do with many factors and takes into account real world tactics. A high experience pilot sweeping from above an enemy will dive and shoot and then disengage. This is modelled in game. So 5 planes can hit a group of 30, down four of them, and leave the scene using their momentum, or head back up for another pass. This was Claire Chennault's answer to Japanese manuverability and it worked. So it's great that this is modelled in game.

Numbers will usually help and can take out much better airframes with very experienced pilots, too. Try sweeping into Manila in 44 with your P-47s and finding 450 Japanese planes. You might get some kills, but numbers will even things out.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Alfred
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RE: Naval, Air, ASW Combat

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: RichardAckermann

Maybe. But if you have several japanese TFs, like at GC start in Patani/Singora, I fear the engine will have a lot of trouble managing the DD group to make a torpedo run while the big ships keep the enemy busy. I have my doubts if it is possible at all to include the other TFs actions the right way when they are not part of the combat calculations. Fighting the TFs one by one may miss the possible co-operation of those TFs.

Care to nominate actual historical occurrences where separate fleets/task forces, each under command of an independent separate commander, simultaneously fought an enemy fleet at the exact same spot and location?

Plus escorts are there to protect your own heavy warships from enemy escorts and threaten the enemy heavy warships, not to go gallivanting off in the middle of the battle to strike at non combat vessels.

The AE naval combat abstraction captures real world praxis. The common praxis, not some unique outlier.

Alfred
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