In Development

[JReb]

Mrs. Wargamer's image of all of us who play against the AI. [:D] [:D].

[MrsWargamer]

Well, I wouldn't say yer that bad Close, but not quite that bad.

[Orm]

I play mostly against the AI. And I usually feel happier playing against the AI than against a random player found on the internet.

[Orm]

I am glad that there are so many games in development. Even though most are not for me.

[Lobster]

The typical war gamer looking for a worthy human opponent who will actually finish the game.

[MrsWargamer]

No one ever asks me to play with them.

[MrsWargamer]

I should mention here.

I'm open to challenges.
I own quite a catalogue of titles. Mainly WW2 titles. I prefer playing the more time friendly titles human vs human. Examples being Battle Academy or SC3

Just a shout out to the kind gentleman who bought me SC3, thank you once again.

[DonCzirr]

Slitherine - What about updating some of your old classics like War Plan Orange or Eagle Day / Bombing the Reich ?

They already have an AI - so no issue there.

I would definitely pay full price for such classics if they were updated to work *well* / easily on modern systems, Steam support etc ...

[yobowargames]

I am an Indie Wargame developer focused on your typical good ole fashioned hex and counters type game. These type of threads are always interesting to read to understand what is important to wargamers. From what I have experienced whilst AI may be important to have as a component of the game, the difficulty of the AI is not as much of a crucial factor.

I have so far released 2 games with no AI and one with AI on PC, iOS, and Android. The number of people who complained about the difficulty of AI - I can count on one hand. The number who complained there was no AI - the same one hand. The number who wanted more wargames - several hands. What people do complain about is historical inaccuracies or armor thickness v Shell penetration. Hence the need for developers who are also wargamers and understand such things.

A lot of the wargames we buy are written by developers that have day jobs. They write them because they love the hobby and they do it on weekends and in the evening. Some of them take years writing the game, trying to make a great game that they hope others will like to play. Check any game and someone always complains about the AI. If they spent a lifetime focused on the AI it would never be good enough for someone. If they spent a lifetime we would have no wargames to play. So AI is always a compromise. People expect it but are willing, in my experience, to accept limitations with it.

People like Google spend millions (billions) of $$ and man-hours developing AI. One day maybe we will be complaining that we cannot win a game because the AI is too good, but only after companies like Google release an interface to their AI machines.

With regards to updating old games. The truth is that trying to remake something that someone, who is no longer around, wrote several years ago is basically the same as starting again. Everything, of course, is possible with time and money but the reality is it's not worth the time or the money. Trying to get an old game running well on the latest platforms can be harder than just rewriting them. As a developer, I would absolutely hate having to take someone else's game that was written 10 years ago in a different coding language and try to "modernize" it. Remember there is already a lack of developers interested in wargames. Do we really want to shrink that pool down by asking them to undertake such a task?

Whilst I am writing this I might as well address the "is it coming to mobile?" question. In my experience here are the facts:

Android - Total waste of time trying to sell a game for money. Even free the uptake of wargames is low compared to other platforms.
iOS - For me as a part-time developer its just about ok to support as I use a tool that compiles for iOS/Android and PC (And it's not Unity!). But its a fraction of the amount of income compared to a PC game. And iOS is going the way of Android day by day. The only reason I do it now is that people write me nice emails thanking me for supporting the platform. If I was trying to run a wargame business to support my family I would not focus any effort on mobile.

[MrsWargamer]

I checked out your 1941 title Yobo (I'm going to call you Yobo until I learn a more appropriate name ).

It downloaded fine, installed ok onto my Windows 8.1 using desktop. Plays ok once a person fidgets a bit. You might want to consider a modest text file giving basic instructions on how to give commands. It's alright for light entertainment.

[yobowargames]

I forgot I had signed up with my development name. So much for trying to be anonymous!

Yobo is what I call my wife. Hence the name.

Good Suggestion re text file.

[Orm]

Thank you for sharing, yobowargames.

[sPzAbt653]

Yobo - thanks for sharing those well spoken points concerning game development. Your real name may be in your profile, but I like Yobo better!

What people do complain about is historical inaccuracies or armor thickness v Shell penetration. Hence the need for developers who are also wargamers and understand such things.

There is no lack of very knowledgeable people on these forums who are able to provide mounds of information and endless hours of playtesting for no charge.

I ascribe to the theory that 'AI' would be impossible, as it would result in a program with 'head problems'. I have no computer background but could imagine/dream that similar to the Blue program for chess, that something could eventually be done for these much more complex game systems. We [gamers] don't need it to think, we just need it to react reasonably.

[operating]

One hell of a discussion and enjoyed the heck out of it..[;)] Where I am in the mode to buy games new to me, threads like this help in making decisions and live with them after a deal is done. I'll say that a supported game (or active game forum support) is of high interest to me when looking to buy these days...

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr

Slitherine - What about updating some of your old classics like War Plan Orange or Eagle Day / Bombing the Reich ?

IIRC, the developer of War Plan Orange was to develop/co-develop a modern version of Grigsby's classic "Carrier Strike". Then everything went dark.

I would certainly be in line to buy an "AE" version of the game. Possibly one that covers the various "Rainbow Plans" of the '20s-'30s (Orange, Red, Black...)

[Red2112]

On the AI topic...

I know of some who just hate to get there butt handed by a real life player!

It´s not my case but like I said above, some egos can´t handle defeat! No matter what type of game!

Seems that getting handed by the AI is a more logical approach for them! [:D]

Red

--

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil
Currently they're also split between Matrix & Slitherine. We're looking to make the whole site & forums more navigable for the future so you can find what you want.

With all due respect, we've been hearing this for years--it would be good it see it finally happen.

[operating]

ORIGINAL: berto


Most players wish for a decent AI, but be careful what you wish for.

I am in the process of extending the helicopter AI for Campaign Series: Vietnam. I can dream up all sorts of neat ideas, things to consider, assessments to make, nuanced actions to take. But apart from the extreme difficulty in coding some of these neat ideas, I know that many of them are very processor intensive. They would slow the game way down.

When playing vs. the AI, I will typically spend 10-30 minutes or more per turn planning and making my moves. Would I, would anybody, sit still waiting for the AI turn taking as long?

No, impatient as we are, we expect the AI to run through its turn quickly, in a minute or two. Any AI turn longer than a few minutes, most players would find unacceptable.

A decent and fast AI? Like having your cake and eating it too. Ain't gonna happen!

I find what you have to say interesting. Personally I do not mind for the AI to make decisions, also it is important to me to try to decipher what moves the AI is trying to achieve (which is entertaining) during it's turn, especially during the movement stage. One game in particular comes to mind about a tough AI is GG's War Between the States. I'm not a fan of simulated battles as in WBTS, however I was impressed with the AI's allocation of units to locations, typically from Washington, DC to Fort Monroe when it was evident my Confederates were building up for an assault on said fort, no matter how I tried to disguise my movements in preparation for assault. I cannot remember at any time playing that game was I able to take Fort Monroe, or Washington DC. However the AI did not stop there, it was also responsive throughout the campaign at all places of contest, mainly using water transports. It's been several years since playing that game, however I do not once ever getting a decisive, without a doubt Confederate Victory. I lay a lot of the blame on not having a direct hand in the battles (hated those ai vs ai battles) the simulated ones. I chose to talk about TWBS because it was one of the most frustrating games to play against the AI, which in a way I appreciated. The downside is; I will never get another game that has simulated battles.

[Tejszd]

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

I'm not familiar with that particular title, but there are plenty of wargames like:
- Turn starts
- Red player gives orders
- Blue player gives orders
- Turn execution - both sets of orders run

The ordering of the Red and Blue order phases makes no difference. So if the human player is Red and takes 10-30 minutes to give their orders, then the AI should also have THE SAME 10-30 minutes to give its orders - it just works in parallel.

Definitely want a good AI when I buy a war game,

WEGO programmed to do the AI in parallel when paired with the multi core processor definitely could be part of the answer. My 6 core is not fully utilized by most war games.

I also don’t mind if there are minor cheats for AI especially at higher difficulty levels. If the cheats can be backed by possible historical explanations all the better. Ex. Air recon or Partisans report on behind the lines unit positions and how dug in they are or better logistics help ammo, fuel and morale

[wodin]

I had an email of Ludovic couple of weeks ago. He is still on it! The game that is.