overrun using 2d10

[jjdenver]

RAC say 7:1 required for overrun. When using 2D10 is it straight 7:1 or are any armor modifiers added and it has to be +14?

[Joseignacio]

From RAW

11.11.6 Overruns
Land units can sometimes destroy enemy units during movement. They do this by entering the enemy hex and declaring an overrun.
You can only conduct an overrun with a single unit, or with a single stack of units that started the land movement (or Advancing after combat, see 11.16.5) step together.

Overrunning land units

A unit can only overrun a land unit if it is in supply both when it starts moving and in the hex just before it overruns.
You can only overrun land units that are in a clear or desert hex that is not a city hex (ports are OK). Overrunning across a river, canal or straits hexside halves the overrunning units’ attack factors as normal. You can’t overrun a land unit in a fort hex across a fort hexside. A fort hex is one containing a fort symbol.

At least one of the overrunning units must be an ARM, MECH or HQ-A unit.

If the defending units include an ARM or HQ-A unit (AsA option 3: or anti-tank unit), you can only overrun them if you have more ARM or HQ-A units.

If the defending units do not include an ARM or HQ-A unit (AsA option 3: or anti-tank unit) but do include a MECH unit, you can only overrun them if you have either:
ï an ARM or HQ-A unit; or
ï more MECH units.

You can only overrun if you have odds of at least 7:1 at the moment of overrun. These odds can be affected by weather, supply, hex and hexside terrain and offensive chits (see 16.3) like ordinary combats (see 11.16). Your final odds are always 7:1 if you are overrunning units with a total of 0 factors (e.g. partisans).

Overrun odds are not affected by aircraft (aircraft units can not fly ground support in an overrun).

Units overrunning enemy land units pay double the normal terrain cost to enter the hex being overrun (after weather effects). Turn them face-down if they exceed their movement allowance.

You can continue moving the units after they overrun but, if they are in an enemy ZOC, they can only do so by further overrunning.
Example:

16.3

11.16 Land combat
After you have finished any paradrops, your land units can attack enemy land units they are adjacent to. Combat is not compulsory (except if you are invading or paradropping).
The land combat sequence is:
1. declare all attacks, (the defender then announces whether any notional units are to be ignored);
2. add defensive shore bombardment (option 38);
3. add offensive shore bombardment;
4. announce defensive HQ support (option 13);
5. announce offensive HQ support;
6. fly and resolve ground support missions;
7. resolve HQ support;
8. the combats are then resolved one by one (attacker choosing the order of combat resolution).

So I would say (and that's how we are playing the tabletop game, after all the factors are computed, so yes to blitz bonus to get 7:1 (weather, land, ...) if used.

Exception: Ground support as explained upstairs.

[AlbertN]

I think to remember it's that +16 is required using the 2d10, and you use all modifiers of the 2d10 table. In the FE rules.

[Joseignacio]

It seems there has been a lot of mess in this, because it seems (again) that one of the versions of 2d10 said +16 and the latest? one returned to the 7:1 which is +14. Here is what one of the most knowledgeable wif list member says:

paul_wiffer [wifdiscussion]

No! You need a 7-1 odds after weather shifts, period. Forget 2D10 for overruns. Think 1D10.

Engineers can help by negating a river hexside. Supply matters to both overrunning units and victims. O-pts can double your combat factors. Weather can reduce the odds. Defender will be doubled in mountain or swamp.

As for the point Philipp brought up, I referred it to the rules group because if an engineer can help then probably winterised can too, BUT you'd need half or more winterised, so in a stack of 3 units, you'd need 2.

Forget mountain and swamp. Defender must be in clear or desert.

Wow, it IS really a mess:

paul_wiffer [wifdiscussion]

No the blitz modifiers do not apply and as written the "more than one" major power would not matter. And winterized works as per 1D10 and has nothing to do with adding to a die roll or shifting down odds needed based on their quantity. You need less than 9-1 or 8-1 based on there being at least one winterized in a stack of 2 units or 2 in a stack of 3 units.

[Joseignacio]

It seems it was like that, here some comments from the change in the odds requirements in the new version of the 2d10 table:

My chum Terry brought back the new 2d10 chart from Euro Wif Con at Hoffgeismer. We are now playing the changes ie only +1 for Territorials etc. However the old +16 for overruns is absent. What does that mean?
As Terry is a proponent of the maxim "Inter arma silent leges" he says it has to mean the +16 is no longer in play and therefore we must revert to the old 7:1.
Or, can you still overrun therefore if you have sufficient plusses from having units flipped, or if you have armour. eg, can you overrun a flipped 3 combat factor inf unit with two armour totalling 17 ie +12(odds) + 2 (flip) + 2(Arm)? Can anyone throw any light on this?

Steve Balk [wifdiscussion]

The overrun is a straight 7:1. No more plus 16.

William Popovich [wifdiscussion]

Overrun same as 1d10.

And it seems that the blitz modifiers and some others don't apply anymore, so this table would amend not only the previous one but the RAW 7.0.

Steve Balk [wifdiscussion]

[...]

I am of the knowledge that the revised 2d10 chart will have those colors removed to avoid just that confusion on the odds level and that overruns are straight odds now -- no flips, bonus, penalties etc.

But after all, since you are asking related to MWIF I don't know which version of the 2D10 the game is using (without checking) the new or the old one.

If it is the old one you'll see the +16 rule in it, if it is the new one, you'll see nothing so it reverts to 7:1 ---> +14

[AlbertN]

Matrix WiF works with the Final Edition rules.
Which means Overrun with 2d10 requires +16; with all the 2d10 modifiers.

It's not rocket science in my eyes.
I am aware in the Collector Edition rules the Overrun specifics are changed, but Matrix WiF does not adapt to the latest ruleset. (A shame in my eyes BUT I understand that to achieve that may imply to recode an amount of stuff and that's not as easy in a software as much as it is for a player to apply on a tabletop game a different ruleset).

EDIT:

If it is the old one you'll see the +16 rule in it, if it is the new one, you'll see nothing so it reverts to 7:1 ---> +14

In the new one (Collector's Edition) it is 7:1 even in 2d10. Not +14. BIG difference.
It has to be litterally a 7:1 ratio of combat factors, no plus or minuses added. So whereas in the +16 required in FE armour bonus, disruption and so forth mattered; in CE it won't. Disruption + OOS combined still shrink the combat factors to 1 or 3 of the defender (depending if white print or not).

Anyhow CE rules are non relevant for MWiF.

[Centuur]

Mr. Cohen is right. On the last page of RAW7 there is the 2D10 combat chart. It states:

Overruns require a +16 modifier (including the Blitz attack modifier) during movement.

[paulderynck]

I think it changed in RAW8 to be 7-1 no matter which combat table you used for three reasons:
1. The designer likes 1D10 since it was his original design, whereas 2D10 was someone else's.
2. Overrun is not combat. It is movement. The rules do not have to be the same as for combat.
3. Many felt +16 with all mods was too easy. Using fractional odds and Divs: Three flips = +5. Three arm/mech = +2.5. So you'd only need +8.5 more to get +16, or actual combat factor odds of 4.25 to one.

Use an O-chit to double a stack of 22 factors and you possibly could overrun a stack with a defense of 10 !

[AlbertN]

I never felt the +16 easy to reach, and hey IF in one action one has used the O-Chit; had enough planes (and the luck) getting to flip a whole stack of 3 pieces (that in their sum is worth 10 - rare circumstance to be honest that 3 pieces equal to 10), that's well worth a successful operation (and still it means 3 out of X offensive actions are spent for the overrun itself already).

Also Fractional Odds are relative there, you need to reach +16.
+15.9 does not cut it for an Overrun. There is no final rounding, you have to get the precise ratio or be above it.
Also as it happens in open plains (or forest with railroad if using the optional for railroad movement) and one has placed only INF class units there, their mistake. Because even if assuming we got 3 flipped units, and only one of them is already a MECH or the like, it's an added -2.

I personally feel it's a design mistake that easen a lot the "sacrificial roadbump" strategy with low strength corps that cannot be sent OOS, making the overrun aspect mostly redundant.
Without an O-Chit in open plan and the like; to overrun a 3 strong unit you'd need pretty much 21 combat factors (+14) and the armour bonus of the stack. That's an overrun on a puny unit that it is rather rare to find in plains.
With the O-Chit you can overrun a stack that's worth the double, like 6 combat factors? But then we talking of an O-Chit.
If something is disorganized but still in supply you can overrun a 4 combat factor unit (INF or GARR or MIL). Still that requires that unit to be bombed (unless already disorganized for other reasons such as a retreat).

I truly do not see the problem of the +16. And to just effort there should be reward.

[paulderynck]

Perhaps the "many" in my post would have been the "few" if you and others of the same mindset (if there were others) had spoken up when they had the chance.

[AlbertN]

I must have missed that thread or got around when it was already decided that chance Paul. Anyhow rules can be changed over time if there are issues or so - not as much as counters / maps once a game is printed and published out.

[Centuur]

Overrunning land units is in itself a rare event in the game, I agree on that. To be able to overrun a stack of three land units is even more exceptional...

[jjdenver]

So....I'm still not clear on how it's implemented in MWIF. Do I need to get +16 or 7:1 to achieve overrun? I don't care which is the right way to do it from a historical perspective or what's too easy - I just want to plan an impulse correctly.

Thanks

[brian brian]

They are the most fun with a stack of 2 1944 ARM units, a heavy duty tank destroyer, and an Offensive Chit.

“You may continue moving the units after they overrun but if they are in an opponent’s ZoC they can only do so by further overrunning.”

[4personalbusiness]

Hi John. These guys are all caught up in historical wrangling. Just save the game and run an experiment for yourself. FWIW, I think MWIF allows overruns at +16 after blitz modification.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

So....I'm still not clear on how it's implemented in MWIF. Do I need to get +16 or 7:1 to achieve overrun? I don't care which is the right way to do it from a historical perspective or what's too easy - I just want to plan an impulse correctly.

Thanks

With 1D10, you need a 7-1.

With 2D10, you need a +16 after all modifiers are applied.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

So....I'm still not clear on how it's implemented in MWIF. Do I need to get +16 or 7:1 to achieve overrun? I don't care which is the right way to do it from a historical perspective or what's too easy - I just want to plan an impulse correctly.

Thanks

With 1D10, you need a 7-1.

With 2D10, you need a +16 after all modifiers are applied.

And that's the way MWiF is coded. As per RAW7.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

So....I'm still not clear on how it's implemented in MWIF. Do I need to get +16 or 7:1 to achieve overrun? I don't care which is the right way to do it from a historical perspective or what's too easy - I just want to plan an impulse correctly.

Thanks

With 1D10, you need a 7-1.

With 2D10, you need a +16 after all modifiers are applied.

And that's the way MWiF is coded. As per RAW7.

Yes.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: 4personalbusiness

Hi John. These guys are all caught up in historical wrangling. Just save the game and run an experiment for yourself. FWIW, I think MWIF allows overruns at +16 after blitz modification.

No, we are not. MWIF uses 2007' RAW 7.0, however RAW 7.0 has been corrected or edited both by 2009' Clarifications and by the 2d10 table, of which there are two versions.

So what we were trying to do was find out which of these amends was the last accepted by MWIF, it seems it uses the 1st 2d10 table, so it's +16, as some beta testers and the Designer have just informed.

You're welcome, we just did the work for free.[:-]

[jjdenver]

Thank you for the update.