VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome)

[SparkleyTits]

Good call on hitting Bryansk sector to keep up the pace it'll dislodge M60 along alot of the front and gives you the option to open the gates for both AGC and AGS

In my game with M60 I reached Lenin around the same time and got met by a wall of X CV's behind the Neva I imagine he has done the same here but I had to ignore it after bashing my head a few times and chose to deal with it without bothering to fight it which niggled heavily at my apparent superiority [:@]

I am sure you will have the answer ready quickly and efficiently so am very much looking forward to that to be quickly assimilated into my moves [:D]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Good call on hitting Bryansk sector to keep up the pace it'll dislodge M60 along alot of the front and gives you the option to open the gates for both AGC and AGS

In my game with M60 I reached Lenin around the same time and got met by a wall of X CV's behind the Neva I imagine he has done the same here but I had to ignore it after bashing my head a few times and chose to deal with it without bothering to fight it which niggled heavily at my apparent superiority [:@]

I am sure you will have the answer ready quickly and efficiently so am very much looking forward to that to be quickly assimilated into my moves [:D]

What I see at Leningrad at the moment isn't going to pose a high degree of challenge. The real question boils down to this, "how many divisions/units is M60 willing to sacrifice to try and delay the already death throws of Leningrad and he is short elsewhere". If the force is big enough I may consider doing another prison there . It won't be the first time I did that. I opened up a highway for the Finns to get through to man the line to the south of Leningrad and then made them surrender during the snow turns. I know it falls under playing with your meal before you eat it but oh well.

[SparkleyTits]

Ah yes Zhukov is in the centre in your game and he definitely cannot afford to put him on the northern front atm

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I know it falls under playing with your meal before you eat it but oh well.

Poor M60 [:D]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Don't laugh but consider this defense. Play around with it and experiment. It may surprise you and now that you see retreat priorities the defense becomes easier too look at. Then figure out German MP's to move between them and/or attack the units.

Posting this for people to think about as defense. Granted it won't work for everything and I worked out how to get around it. But it is good when you want a more defense in depth with less units. I have varying degrees of lines and defense units I worked out. Play around and see if something like this can work for you. Or it could be all B*llSh*t but I have used it as Soviets to great effect many times.

Also varying degree of defense strength points are put into certain hexes so when one unit retreats down the rail line the defense gets larger. the tail units can be Armor/Moto units since these like to route after the 1st attack or two. Then make sure to have a catch unit at the rear to prevent a breakout or more lines. Play around with it and let me know.

Red hex outline designates a unit of varying degree.

[SparkleyTits]

Interesting defence I would try cutting it in half above bryansk but even then it could be hard to seal in entirety and safety if you assume you didn't have Axis forces placed perfectly which would be likely

If there was a panzer corp on each end you could plasuibly cut the rail and zoc block it for a two turn pocket but it wouldn't be a great land grab or a huge manpower grab for the time it would take

Nice defence for Soviets I think if you accept a little possible collateral damage for the advantage of buying time for a few bodies and a couple of hexes which is usually a good exchange for the Soviets if it isn't happening all over the front

[timmyab]

The row of three second from top looks like the weak link to me. If a mobile div has the MPs to go through three ZOCs on the South side of it all three defending units will be bumped to the North and the defense will open up nicely. Same applies to the row beneath it actually, but it reverse of course.

[AFV]

HLYA- your walkthrough on the Bryansk attack was very instructional. I know it had to be a pita to take all the screenshots and the comments, but its a fantastic series of posts- thank you so much for doing that.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: AFV

HLYA- your walkthrough on the Bryansk attack was very instructional. I know it had to be a pita to take all the screenshots and the comments, but its a fantastic series of posts- thank you so much for doing that.

You are welcome. It was a little painful but I normally take pictures of German attacks all the time when I play. I always use them as a learning experience by reflecting back on what I can do different or better. After having done this for awhile now I do these moves as 2nd nature

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

The row of three second from top looks like the weak link to me. If a mobile div has the MPs to go through three ZOCs on the South side of it all three defending units will be bumped to the North and the defense will open up nicely. Same applies to the row beneath it actually, but it reverse of course.

You may be surprised on what would happen but forcing through woods degrades the MP's more so that is a win scenerio . Since Chaos45 once said you are fighting German MP's in the early game, or something on that lines but you get the meaning. But what I'm trying to say is that you really don't need the tradition long snake front line to make an effective defense since just a single front line is easily broken and no defense in depth. This at least gives a minimum defense in depth with about the same unit qty.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Interesting defence I would try cutting it in half above bryansk but even then it could be hard to seal in entirety and safety if you assume you didn't have Axis forces placed perfectly which would be likely

If there was a panzer corp on each end you could plasuibly cut the rail and zoc block it for a two turn pocket but it wouldn't be a great land grab or a huge manpower grab for the time it would take

Nice defence for Soviets I think if you accept a little possible collateral damage for the advantage of buying time for a few bodies and a couple of hexes which is usually a good exchange for the Soviets if it isn't happening all over the front

So just think of the Soviets retreating and now the last unit in the back become the new front line. The the last hex becomes the new 3 hex deep row. Follow what I'm saying? That way if you retreat those last units have already dug in a bit. Then you can pick the picketts out front.

[timmyab]

But what I'm trying to say is that you really don't need the tradition long snake front line to make an effective defense since just a single front line is easily broken and no defense in depth.

I agree and I've seen some effective hedgehog type defenses, mainy where people build powerful stacks, but their weakness is always the german armor ability to pass through multiple ZOCs and I think this defense is probably vulnerable to that.
Looking at it again I think that it's the third row down that is the weakest link because I would guess, (with my new found knowledge of these things [:)]), that a german mech unit will only need to pass through two ZOC because the unit in hex marked A will choose to retreat in one of the directions marked. If it's necessary to cross the river through ZOC there should still be plenty of MPs for the job.
Ignore units marked B and C, these would be cleared out the way.

More puzzles please.

[beender]

The best German opening i've seen or heard of (well not that i've seen many). Hands down.

If i might learn (or at least try to）your style of German play, I suppose this AAR provides the best tutorial? Please let me know if there is a thread or AAR that contains more details. Thanks!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

But what I'm trying to say is that you really don't need the tradition long snake front line to make an effective defense since just a single front line is easily broken and no defense in depth.

I agree and I've seen some effective hedgehog type defenses, mainy where people build powerful stacks, but their weakness is always the german armor ability to pass through multiple ZOCs and I think this defense is probably vulnerable to that.
Looking at it again I think that it's the third row down that is the weakest link because I would guess, (with my new found knowledge of these things [:)]), that a german mech unit will only need to pass through two ZOC because the unit in hex marked A will choose to retreat in one of the directions marked. If it's necessary to cross the river through ZOC there should still be plenty of MPs for the job.
Ignore units marked B and C, these would be cleared out the way.

More puzzles please.

Remember that unit "B" will retreat down the rail line east if you don't force it to a different hex with a ZOC. Also, the hex two hexes in front of "A" will also retreat down the rail line also making the stack have a higher combat value. Then when you attack that hex(one hex in front of "A") the two units will also more than likely retreat to "A". Remember units will the majority of the time retreat to a woods hex with rail over a clear hex with rail . So the whole attack is going to be a little more difficult each hex down the line The whole point of this is that you are costing Germans MP's. If the Soviets had more units you could have put another line where numbers 18, 27, and 41 for a double line. But I was just trying to do a 1 for 1 unit comparison that M60 had in the area on what I would have done on a defense. Pretty much at this stage in the game, it is very difficult to set up a full proof defense but it does delimit German MP's which you are fighting the most against and against a deep penetration. Like I have said many times any defense can be broken, just at what cost.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: timmyab

But what I'm trying to say is that you really don't need the tradition long snake front line to make an effective defense since just a single front line is easily broken and no defense in depth.

I agree and I've seen some effective hedgehog type defenses, mainy where people build powerful stacks, but their weakness is always the german armor ability to pass through multiple ZOCs and I think this defense is probably vulnerable to that.
Looking at it again I think that it's the third row down that is the weakest link because I would guess, (with my new found knowledge of these things [:)]), that a german mech unit will only need to pass through two ZOC because the unit in hex marked A will choose to retreat in one of the directions marked. If it's necessary to cross the river through ZOC there should still be plenty of MPs for the job.
Ignore units marked B and C, these would be cleared out the way.

More puzzles please.

Remember that unit "B" will retreat down the rail line east if you don't force it to a different hex with a ZOC. Also, the hex two hexes in front of "A" will also retreat down the rail line also making the stack have a higher combat value. Then when you attack that hex(one hex in front of "A") the two units will also more than likely retreat to "A". Remember units will the majority of the time retreat to a woods hex with rail over a clear hex with rail . So the whole attack is going to be a little more difficult each hex down the line The whole point of this is that you are costing Germans MP's. If the Soviets had more units you could have put another line where numbers 18, 27, and 41 for a double line. But I was just trying to do a 1 for 1 unit comparison that M60 had in the area on what I would have done on a defense. Pretty much at this stage in the game, it is very difficult to set up a full proof defense but it does delimit German MP's which you are fighting the most against and against a deep penetration. Like I have said many times any defense can be broken, just at what cost.

Here are your retreat priorities as I see them if a ZOC wasn't put into hexes to force a retreat to specific areas. Let me know what you think now . A collapsable defense if you will . You will never have a full proof defense, just one that cost more than expected to unsuspecting attackers.

(btw your 4 mp to 8mp would be higher since "B" could still be in the way of the river crosing thus costing more MP's if it hadnt been moved. Sorry doing this while working and just noticing other things). Now having said that a caveat with "B"'s retreat. Depending on what hexside it is attacked from could cause "B" to retreat to the clear terrain instead of the woods with rail hex ;-P. I'm not getting into that at the moment though and a subject for another day that I have noticed.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: beender

The best German opening i've seen or heard of (well not that i've seen many). Hands down.

If i might learn (or at least try to）your style of German play, I suppose this AAR provides the best tutorial? Please let me know if there is a thread or AAR that contains more details. Thanks!

Don't think I have the best opening & others here are way more capable than me. If you would like to see other things I wrote I would do a search on my name. This AAR is by far the most detailed I have done. But again I implore you to read others too since many have excellent writeups

[timmyab]

That's the whole point of pushing the mech unit through ZOC. To force them to retreat South. If the River line at the rear was defended that would complicate things.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

That's the whole point of pushing the mech unit through ZOC. To force them to retreat South. If the River line at the rear was defended that would complicate things.

Yup. You are correct. If you had more units just put in the extra line in those hexes and would make it stronger. (Sorry, should be paying better attention but at work replying .

[timmyab]

Keep posting ideas, it's very interesting.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Keep posting ideas, it's very interesting.

I have a great many from trial and tribulations I have done . But I can't give all of my ideas out ;-O

[beender]

Alright then i will meticulously follow this one, and try to apply the ideas against the AI first(guess that'll be a overkill[:D])