Jungle, mountain, and rough hexes

[Yaab]

For the last two days I have been trying to come up with a house-rule concerning ROADLESS mountain, rough and jungle hexes , including mixed hexes like wooded rough, jungle mountain etc.

As it is now, any land unit can enter and traverse such hexes albeit very slowly. This leads to unrealistic gameplay especially in Burma and New Guinea. Right now you can move tank battalions, heavy AA gun units , heavy field artillery, ENG with bulldozers and motorized support from Buna to Port Moresby or from Burma into India.

My first rule was to bar all non-infantry units from entering such hexes. That seemed to be somewhat restrictive, and my second rule was to allow all units to enter such hexes. Infantry can enter and traverse such hexes, while tank/arty/AA/AT with mot support/ENG with heavy equipment/cavalry will be stuck in the hex – they can go back, but cannot traverse to other hexes. Thus, a Jap tank unit can move from a clear hex in Burma to a jungle hex with no roads, but cannot move to another jungle/mountain/rough. Thus, the non-infantry units can form defensive positions, but cannot spearhead an offensive.

However, this rule lead to a funny situation in New Guinea. Allies land tank in Port Moresby, Japs land tanks in Buna. They both can go into the rough jungle hex between the two ports and now we have a tank battle in the heart of the Owen Stanley mountains. This fight can be escalated by adding heavy field arty, AA guns etc. Even though it is only the winning side's infantry that can exploit the breakthrough in this fight, it still feels unrealistic to have this engagment in midst of the Owen Stanley in the first place. So basically, I had to go back to the rule number one.

The rule is:

-only infantry (both with support or mot support squads), combat engineers, mountain guns, and mortar (with support) units can enter AND traverse ROADLESS jungle hexes , including mixed hexes like wooded rough, jungle mountain etc

---------------

If you see any drawback to this rule please comment.


Guadalcanal campaign with this rule could look the following way:

-both sides land all kind of units in Tassafaronga and Lunga
- Jap infantry (with organic artillery), mountain guns and mortars enters Lunga jungle hex. US defends with infantry, tanks and field arty. Japs lack punching power to knock out tanks and arty. They can call for ships to do a bombardment mission. They can call for CAS missions (which excludes 2Es from level bombing in combat hexes) . Jap Zeros can fly strafing missions with 60kg bombs from Munda. 2ES from Shortlands can bomb the Henderson airfield in Lunga. Both sides now try to establish air superiority over Guadalcanal so they can provide CAS missions for their infantry forces. A protracted campaign begins… Americans start their offensive, but face the same problems when laying siege to Tassafaronga hex...

What do you think?

[Yaab]

I would also add a second rule that infantry units fighting in those hexes have to be broken into smallest possible components (divs into regts, Chinese corps into divs) in order to simulate lack of continous frontline and small-unit action. This should also add more targets for CAS missions.

[Leandros]

Nothing is impossible. It only takes more time.

Fred

[spence]

Nothing is impossible. It only takes more time.

If it had been needed to stop/beat the Japanese the Allies would have built a real road over the Owen Stanleys. Historically they built the Ledo Road and the Alaska Trans Canada Highway (constructed ~1400 miles in ~7 months (Mar-Oct 1942)). The Imperial Japanese Army could have done it too - the Australians would never suspect that they're finishing it up even now[:D]

[MakeeLearn]

So... It is impossible for anything to be impossible?

[MakeeLearn]

US Army Tanks in the Jungle, Part 1 The Battle for Bougainville

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php ... le-part-1/

"The physical misery experienced by these tankers in conditions of high heat and humidity were to prove common in the Pacific theater. A post-war study of ten armored battalions by the Pacific Warfare Board concluded that carbon-monoxide buildup from gun fumes played a major role in making crewmen sick, which was a particular problem when the turret was buttoned up. Malaise, nausea, and vomiting were common, and almost every unit reported cases of men passing out in combat. The most common firing pattern contributed by rapidly building up fumes: Gunners typically fired five to ten bursts as quickly as possible—one minute or less—as targets were spotted, and firing forty rounds in ten to fifteen minutes was common."

[JeffroK]

How would your HR explain how the British 14th Army moved 2 Armoured Brigades from Imphal to the Central Burma plains??

A thought would be to rule that Armoured units can only move in COMBAT mode in these hexes, it takes weeks to move a hex at this rate.

Anyone who believes that you could build even a jeep track over the Owen Stanleys should take up playing HOI III

[Yaab]

Thanks for the responses.

After some thinking, I am adjusting the rule.

The rule is:

-only infantry (both with support or mot support squads), combat engineers, mountain guns, and mortar (with support squads) units can enter AND traverse ROADLESS mountain, mountain jungle, and wooded rough hexes.

Roadless jungle and rough hexes will be accessible to everybody.

[spence]

Anyone who believes that you could build even a jeep track over the Owen Stanleys should take up playing HOI III

I've never hiked the Kokoda Track nor traveled the ALCAN highway (nor played or even looked at HOI III). It seems to me that given how the US built the ~2200km ALCAN Highway through impassable mountains and frozen tundra (permafrost makes construction interesting) in only 7 months because Japan was threatening the US in 1942 that if some mere mountains got in the way the Army Corps of Engineers would have simply gotten them out of the way if that had been necessary ("cheaper" ways were found). Anyways here's an article about the 75th anniversary of the ALCAN's construction for those interested.


http://www.sitnews.us/1017News/102717/1 ... ghway.html

Incidentally the highway was finished in late 1942 and was open for the majority of the war - seems it should be figured into the game somehow.

[jdsrae]

I walked to Kokoda from Ower's Corner for my brothers 40th birthday about 8 years ago. Silly idea for a 40th birthday but it was a fantastic trek. The general store at Kokoda hadn't been warned out to put extra beers in the fridge so I remember forcing down a few warm ones...
There were efforts to try and survey a feasible road alignment, but air transport of supplies must have been cheaper.
More recent roads in the area have had the incentive of gold mines or other resources to help make them economical.

Search for Bulldog Track, or the Bulldog-Wau Road. The Australian War Memorial has some great pictures online.

In 1943 Australian Army engineers; the 2/1 and 2/16 Field Company RAE, 9th Australian Field Company (AIF), veterans of Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece and Crete, the 1st and 3rd Australian Pack Transport Companies and local Papuan labour cut the road with pickaxes and dynamite over a period of eight months. The Chief Engineer, W. J. Reinhold, was later to write "Every foot of progress made on this road exacted the ultimate in courage, endurance, skill and toil. Its construction took a toll from surveyor, engineer, labourer and native carrier alike." During five months of operations over seventy per cent of the 2/1 Australian Field Company contracted malaria.

“ Along many sections, road-surfacing materials was practically non-existent. The climate ranged from torrid heat to icy cold. The annual rainfall ranged between 150 and 200 inches. These wet conditions combined with the topographic features made construction extremely difficult. In a few minutes a landslide would destroy weeks of labour. The construction gangs would stop, repair the work and move on.
As work progressed the problem of maintaining a supply line became formidable. Work was often suspended for lack of petrol, oil, grease, explosives, drill steel, jackbits or other essentials. Nearly all work in the high central section of the road was done with picks, shovels and crowbars. Since blacksmiths tools were slow in arriving and forges awkward to transport, it was often necessary to use badly blunted tools.
”

The purpose of the road was to provide a supply line for future military operations in the Markham Valley and on the northern coasts of Papua New Guinea. On the late afternoon of August 22, 1943, the road was finally completed and two jeeps crossed from Edie Creek to Bulldog.

On September 23, the first three-ton trucks crossed the road successfully and the long supply line was finally open with 114 kilometres of road were now completed. Commencing at Bulldog at an altitude of 59 metres it rose by a series of long loops up through the steep river gorges of the southern watershed to an altitude of three thousand metres, then dropped down a series of ridges into the Wau valley.

Seventeen bridges were constructed; mostly single, but at least one with multiple spans. More than two thousand Australian army personnel and over two thousand Papuans and New Guineans were involved during nine months of construction. Thus the road was completed and for the only time in history motor vehicles crossed the high rugged mountains of Papua New Guinea.


If you must have a house rule, 25 pounder artillery pieces should also be classed as "mountain guns":
During the month of September 1942 two 25 pounder field guns of the 14th Australian Field Regiment were brought forward to Owers’ Corner, where they were manhandled into firing positions. This was the only allied Field Artillery used during the Kokoda Track campaign to support the out gunned and greatly out numbered Infantry. This action assisted in halting the Japanese advance just 48 kilometres from Port Moresby; so began the Japanese retreat. The terrain was almost impassable for Infantry let alone Artillery.
A third 25 pounder field gun was dismantled and manhandled to Peg 66 beyond Uberi. The Regiment was assisted in reaching their firing position by a Platoon of the 2/1st Pioneer Battalion. However, by then the Japanese had withdrawn beyond the range of the gun.

[Yaab]

They only way to simulate this in the game, would be to park dedicated engineer units ( not engineers organic in LCU units) in a given hex for a period of i.e three months, after which time, the hex would be passable by all units, who will be now travelling on an invisible road constructed by the engineer units. The enqineer squad strength would have to be maintained at a fixed level i.e 30 squads during the three months. Dropping below this threshold, will prolong the construction by one day for each day the threshold is not met by the player. All this procces would have to be handled by the game code. Since there is no such code, it is better, in my opinion, to have a fixed, simple rule.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

If you must have a house rule, 25 pounder artillery pieces should also be classed as "mountain guns":
During the month of September 1942 two 25 pounder field guns of the 14th Australian Field Regiment were brought forward to Owers’ Corner, where they were manhandled into firing positions. This was the only allied Field Artillery used during the Kokoda Track campaign to support the out gunned and greatly out numbered Infantry. This action assisted in halting the Japanese advance just 48 kilometres from Port Moresby; so began the Japanese retreat. The terrain was almost impassable for Infantry let alone Artillery.
A third 25 pounder field gun was dismantled and manhandled to Peg 66 beyond Uberi. The Regiment was assisted in reaching their firing position by a Platoon of the 2/1st Pioneer Battalion. However, by then the Japanese had withdrawn beyond the range of the gun.

This is tricky.

In the game, there is only one 25 pounder device ( device ID 1072). There is no Short variant of the gun, which was a later, jungle version of the gun.

To keep the rule simple, I decided to let all infantry units to enter and traverse roadless mountain, wood/jungle mountain/rough hexes. There is just a handful of true, mountain units in the game (a US Army regiment at start; initial Australian battalions before they get combined into bde; Chinese infantry corps once they lose their last 75mm field guns) and their selection is too limiting for players to enjoy the game. So I let all infantry units fight and traverse in those hexes. An elegant solution would be to have the game code DISABLE all heavy weapons/mot support once an infantry LCU enters mountain/jungle mountain/wooded rough hex. This would simulate leaving the heavy weapons behind and fighting only with what you can transport by porters and mules.

[spence]

Thus the road was completed and for the only time in history motor vehicles crossed the high rugged mountains of Papua New Guinea.

Interesting post.

As to a house rule it would seem that the only effect would be to restrict the Allied Player to the same level of logistic support as the Japanese Player can achieve.

As it stands right now though Japanese tank units are filling their tanks with gasoline in China a thousand kilometers from the nearest railroad with logistical support provided by mules and hand carts. Perhaps Japanese soldiers could survive on slimmer rations than the average Allied soldier but I've not heard word one about the amazing fuel efficiency of the IJA's tanks.

[Yaab]

Well, I cannot change the automatic supply routines by adding any house-rules. Using my rule, the Chinese can amass whatever field arty they have on choke-point hexes and wait for the Jap tanks to arrive.

[spence]

As far as I can tell there is absolutely no advantage in any context to be a more modern army than the one that the Japanese deployed in 1937. In spite of the well documented ability to move supplies on trucks away from railheads further and faster the only difference between motorized and other support units notable in the game is that motorized support units take longer to unload after an amphibious landing than the support units typical of a Japanese unit.

The British army motorized their entire army in the 30's because they found out that the majority of their shipping in WW1 spent he war moving horse fodder to the continent to keep the army capable f offnsive operations.

[MakeeLearn]

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php ... le-part-1/

"The physical misery experienced by these tankers in conditions of high heat and humidity were to prove common in the Pacific theater. A post-war study of ten armored battalions by the Pacific Warfare Board concluded that carbon-monoxide buildup from gun fumes played a major role in making crewmen sick, which was a particular problem when the turret was buttoned up. Malaise, nausea, and vomiting were common, and almost every unit reported cases of men passing out in combat. The most common firing pattern contributed by rapidly building up fumes: Gunners typically fired five to ten bursts as quickly as possible—one minute or less—as targets were spotted, and firing forty rounds in ten to fifteen minutes was common."

[geofflambert]

I understand the intent. My opponent is about to do the same unthinkable thing. Nonetheless, "house rules" blow big bubbles.

[MakeeLearn]

Wrong thread. Was trying to post my info into "Tank warfare - interior conditions"


Too many windows open.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I understand the intent. My opponent is about to do the same unthinkable thing. Nonetheless, "house rules" blow big bubbles.

In a PBEM, I suspect you are more correct than now.

In an AI game, you can create all the house rules you want, but they are only in effect for one side. Andy Ai will march from PM to Buna no matter what the house rule states when that script fires.

[GetAssista]

Any movement restriction house rules are not viable because of how retreats work.