ground support

[postfux]

Is there a way to make sure no ground support missions are flow without fighter cover?

I tried around a bit and air settings dont seem to make a difference.

[postfux]

I am ground attacking a hex that is well within fighter range using a staging base. It is out of fighter range without staging base.

No matter what setting I use there is a chance unescorted bomber will fly ground support into heavy enemy fighter cover.

Edit: Within normal fighter range they bomb escorted.

Is that to be expected or can it be prevented?

[Kantti]

There can be couple of reasons for this:

1) Your fighters are too fatigued to fly
2) Your fighters have no ammunition left
3) Your fighters don't have enough fuel

You should check that these are not the case before battles requiring ground support.

[No idea]

I dont think there is any way to prevent it, beyond making sure your fighters are in range.

[postfux]

I think that this is a bug.

I did move the staging base back so that the target hex was out of fighter range: no bomber attacked

I did move the staging back back and the fighter base forward so the target hex was within fighter range: unescorted attack

I did move the staging base back and the fighter base forward and moved the bomber base on the same hex as the fighter base: escorted attack

It seems (with very little testing) that fighter cover use a bomber base as staging base and when the range gets to far the bombers fly anyway.

I dont think bombers should fly unescorted when the settings say otherwise.

[morvael]

Unfortunately that would require a major rework of the escort code. Basically the game first sends bombers, and then tries to find them some escorts. So the bombers must fly even if no escort will be found.

[postfux]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Unfortunately that would require a major rework of the escort code. Basically the game first sends bombers, and then tries to find them some escorts. So the bombers must fly even if no escort will be found.

Thanks for your clarification.

In this case the fighters could fly. The only reason they dont fly seems to be they use the bomber base as staging base (even when closer to the target).

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: postfux

ORIGINAL: morvael

Unfortunately that would require a major rework of the escort code. Basically the game first sends bombers, and then tries to find them some escorts. So the bombers must fly even if no escort will be found.

Thanks for your clarification.

In this case the fighters could fly. The only reason they dont fly seems to be they use the bomber base as staging base (even when closer to the target).

There are configurations to be able to extend escorted AirPower into the battle space. In my 2x3 AAR I show how to get a staging base forward where fighters and bombers are using a forward base, yet the bombers are back enough to be safe from airfield attacks. I demonstrate escorted bombing of Soviet airfields within Leningrad on turn 2.

[morvael]

I always mix bombers with fighters in my bases and usually have no problems with escort (except when bombers will go too far away - but that may happen only in manually launched missions and interdiction if it's not turned off).

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: postfux
In this case the fighters could fly. The only reason they dont fly seems to be they use the bomber base as staging base (even when closer to the target).

The AI does not necessarily choose the optimum staging base and will frequently choose the one that is the "centre of gravity" for all airgroups attacking. This means some aircraft will fly backwards to a staging base rather than forward to the optimum staging base. As this is an AI decision in ground support the only solutions are to move airgroups and bases to stop the AI having bad options to chose from.

[postfux]

Crackaces, that is exactly the method I am trying to use. I have my bases well back on the railheads and use a staging bases to get the planes into range (the damage dive bombers can do on turn 1 borders on gameyness).

The problem is the auto ground support. Obviously the game decides an escorted bomber mission can be flown differently from when the fighter get added to the strike because the fighters then use the bomber bases. Fighter cover gets scrapped, bombers fly anyway, the german fatherland looses 8 bombers.

Morvael, i am unsure mixing fighters with bombers will solve this problem. In my case the fighter base is in the same hex as the bomber bases. This will likely result in similar calculations.

[postfux]

Telemecus, reducing bad options wont help. My bases are stacked in two adjacent hexes with an empty base far forward. Further reduction is impractical.

The problem seems to be the game thinks fighters are in range when giving the OK for a ground support mission to realise (wrongly) the fighters are out of range when fixing the details of the mission.

I would have no problem with no ground support in this case, but loosing 8 bombers needless hurts.

The only remedy seems to be to keep fighters close to the bombers and to manually switch off ground support when using forward staging bases.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: postfux
Telemecus, reducing bad options wont help.

I would disagree as you can always reduce the options available down to just one - the only one you will let it do. If the staging base is empty for instance you should be moving it to where it will be best for or will not interfere with ground support.

At least as I understand it the AI does not check first if escorts are available for ground support - it only checks if bombers are available. Escorts are only considered once the mission has the go ahead. If the bomber base we know the AI will choose for staging the ground support mission is out of range for fighters, then you need to set up the bomber base at the start of your turn so it will be in fighter range if that is what you want.

If playing a good opponent who notices you are doing unescorted ground support they will certainly take advantage by posting lots of fighters there. So it is part of the game to stop this as a recurring possibility before an opponent takes advantage.

[postfux]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I would disagree as you can always reduce the options available down to just one - the only one you will let it do. If the staging base is empty for instance you should be moving it to where it will be best for or will not interfere with ground support.

You are right on this one, but moving an airbase for no other reason or not using a staging base seems impractical. I just wanted to point out deployment of bases is kind of optimized in my case.

At least as I understand it the AI does not check first if escorts are available for ground support - it only checks if bombers are available. Escorts are only considered once the mission has the go ahead. If the bomber base we know the AI will choose for staging the ground support mission is out of range for fighters, then you need to set up the bomber base at the start of your turn so it will be in fighter range if that is what you want.

If the settings for ground support require an escort the game will check.

In my case with the staging base I get unescorted ground support and without the staging base I get no ground support. All other things equal.

So with staging base the game thinks there will be escorts without it knows there wont. At least this is my conclusion.

Only solution seems to be to manually check if escorts will be provided and to turn off/ on ground support. On more thing to think about in a game not lacking things to think about.