Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

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wodin
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Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by wodin »

Hitler at one point stopped any further replacement tanks to go to the East Front as he was already thinking and planning his next move once Russia was beat. Anyone know exactly what these plans where?
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by Ironclad »

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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: wodin

Hitler at one point stopped any further replacement tanks to go to the East Front as he was already thinking and planning his next move once Russia was beat. Anyone know exactly what these plans where?
warspite1

Bizarre. Does the author give a timescale for that?
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: wodin

Hitler at one point stopped any further replacement tanks to go to the East Front as he was already thinking and planning his next move once Russia was beat. Anyone know exactly what these plans where?
warspite1

Bizarre. Does the author give a timescale for that?

Fritz (Ostkrieg) and Stahel (Barbarossa) make the same basic argument that Hitler was holding back tanks.

Fritz suggests the fantasy was that the war with the Soviets would be reduced to policing a border region along the Urals by mid-42 and then the Germans could strike into the Middle and Near East. Stahel suggests the reason was a bit saner - that it took a long time to refit the divisions that had invaded Yugoslavia and Greece and that the priority was to build up stocks and equip new formations rather than let the new tanks be lost in the final battles in the Soviet Union.
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: wodin

Hitler at one point stopped any further replacement tanks to go to the East Front as he was already thinking and planning his next move once Russia was beat. Anyone know exactly what these plans where?
warspite1

Bizarre. Does the author give a timescale for that?

Fritz (Ostkrieg) and Stahel (Barbarossa) make the same basic argument that Hitler was holding back tanks.

Fritz suggests the fantasy was that the war with the Soviets would be reduced to policing a border region along the Urals by mid-42 and then the Germans could strike into the Middle and Near East. Stahel suggests the reason was a bit saner - that it took a long time to refit the divisions that had invaded Yugoslavia and Greece and that the priority was to build up stocks and equip new formations rather than let the new tanks be lost in the final battles in the Soviet Union.
warspite1

Thanks, I don't recall Fritz making that comment. I would still like to know a timescale. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised given he gave orders to demobilise part of the army after the fall of France.
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...

Thanks, I don't recall Fritz making that comment. I would still like to know a timescale. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised given he gave orders to demobilise part of the army after the fall of France.

Fritz discusses the overall allocation on p. 117 where he identifies the intention was to use the new formations in the Middle East in 1942. Theres more on p. 151 where he mentions that Halder drew on this reserve to release an additional 181 tanks for the active divisions.

At that stage what the German leadership wanted to do (reinforce or hold back) became irrelevant as between the need to pull motorised vehicles back to the Reich to repair and the wider collapse of their supply system they probably couldn't have sent many more tanks east in any case.
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...

Thanks, I don't recall Fritz making that comment. I would still like to know a timescale. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised given he gave orders to demobilise part of the army after the fall of France.

Fritz discusses the overall allocation on p. 117 where he identifies the intention was to use the new formations in the Middle East in 1942. Theres more on p. 151 where he mentions that Halder drew on this reserve to release an additional 181 tanks for the active divisions.

At that stage what the German leadership wanted to do (reinforce or hold back) became irrelevant as between the need to pull motorised vehicles back to the Reich to repair and the wider collapse of their supply system they probably couldn't have sent many more tanks east in any case.
warspite1

And they say the Japanese had victory disease.....[;)]
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by Lobster »

By December 1941 the Germans could have replaced their tank and Stug losses with over 2000 new tanks and Stugs. Even more, these tanks would have had 50mm or 75mm guns replacing tanks that had smaller guns. These were vehicles that had been tested and accepted by the army, not sitting on production lines or awaiting testing. The ineptitude of the German High Command in grasping the strategic situation on the East Front and providing available replacements during the crucial stages of Barbarossa is staggering.
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

By December 1941 the Germans could have replaced their tank and Stug losses with over 2000 new tanks and Stugs. Even more, these tanks would have had 50mm or 75mm guns replacing tanks that had smaller guns. These were vehicles that had been tested and accepted by the army, not sitting on production lines or awaiting testing. The ineptitude of the German High Command in grasping the strategic situation on the East Front and providing available replacements during the crucial stages of Barbarossa is staggering.

don't disagree, but a serious question. Given the state of the German supply net by the end of September could they actually have delivered those tanks etc to the front line units? Given they were struggling to deliver spare parts etc for the vehicles they already had at the front.
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by wodin »

It was around July/August I think when he thought it was in the bag!
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RE: Reading C Luther's excellent Barbarossa book he mentions..?

Post by Poopyhead »

The Nazis only produced 1673 Pz III's with the short 50 mm L42 gun and 540 Sturmgeschuetz with the short 75 mm howitzer in all of 1941. Besides, during the winter the tanks at the Russian Front couldn't run their engines or fire their guns for lack of adequate sub-zero lubricant. During the Battle of the Bulge the US had hundreds of Tiger/Panther busting Pershing tanks with a powerful 90 mm gun...on the east coast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ar ... rld_War_II

One of the many "plans" the German High Command formulated was to have millions of slave-laborers dig strong points along sound defensive lines where the army could be supplied with winter gear, ammo and fuel. The Wehrmacht would then fall back to these positions, still deep in Russia, and spend the winter rebuilding their strength. Fortunately Hitler didn't approve.
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