OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

What is on the side of that Sherman? Almost looks like wooden planks?


In the ETO and pacific, wood was sometimes placed on the sides of tanks to counter magnetic explosives..
The Japanese infantry were especially creative with anti-tank devices and placed magnetic mines on the ends of long poles, which they then ran against the sides of our tanks.

Included is the "hook" which was also used by the Japanese when they saw the wood had been applied to the sides.

Our G.I.'s were equally creative in countering enemy obstacles in all theaters as well.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

I was wondering if what I heard was true?

Also, if the Chinese did have panzers, how did they do against the Japanese tanks?



A Chinese Pzkw I.



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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by fcooke »

Thanks - never had seen or heard that before......if only they had zimmerit.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Thanks - never had seen or heard that before......if only they had zimmerit.


Here is something you may not believe.
Prior to the end of WW2, the Japanese did not even have the concept of an "assembly line", as we take for granted nowadays.
The Japanese "zero" for example was produced in maybe 20 different shops or even barns, being carted around often on a horse drawn cart, and some of the stops were just a guy and his wife who might place a set number of bolts and nuts onto an assembly, then off to the next stop.
Of course you can see how long it might take to assemble things this way.
The Japanese did not have the resources for Zimmerit, or other things seen in Europe.
(Nazi Germany was using television in the thirties to broadcast their propaganda! They were called "Fernsehen".

After WW2, America sent production experts to Japan and helped them get factories going again and showed them how to operate assembly lines.
The Japanese clung to "quality control" of those lines and to this day their autos (like Toyota) seldom show rust, whereas U.S. autos earned the nickname of "rustbuckets" by the mid-sixties.

During the Korean War, my dad visited a Japanese town which renamed itself "Usa", and they explained proudly they had changed the name intentionally so they could stamp "Made in USA" on their goods.
This was at a time when U.S. goods were still considered the world standard on many of it's products.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Thanks - never had seen or heard that before......if only they had zimmerit.


Here is something you may not believe.
Prior to the end of WW2, the Japanese did not even have the concept of an "assembly line", as we take for granted nowadays.
The Japanese "zero" for example was produced in maybe 20 different shops or even barns, being carted around often on a horse drawn cart, and some of the stops were just a guy and his wife who might place a set number of bolts and nuts onto an assembly, then off to the next stop.
Of course you can see how long it might take to assemble things this way.
The Japanese did not have the resources for Zimmerit, or other things seen in Europe.
(Nazi Germany was using television in the thirties to broadcast their propaganda! They were called "Fernsehen".

After WW2, America sent production experts to Japan and helped them get factories going again and showed them how to operate assembly lines.
The Japanese clung to "quality control" of those lines and to this day their autos (like Toyota) seldom show rust, whereas U.S. autos earned the nickname of "rustbuckets" by the mid-sixties.

During the Korean War, my dad visited a Japanese town which renamed itself "Usa", and they explained proudly they had changed the name intentionally so they could stamp "Made in USA" on their goods.
This was at a time when U.S. goods were still considered the world standard on many of it's products.
Toyota was not continually great in design. The first Toyotas to reach Canada were in fact rust-buckets because their lack of undercoating vs all the salt we use on the roads in our winters. They also had issues with batteries too weak to turn over the engine in cold weather (-20C/0F or so). It took a couple of years for them to modify their systems to produce slightly different car models for different climates.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by rustysi »

The Japanese clung to "quality control" of those lines and to this day their autos (like Toyota) seldom show rust, whereas U.S. autos earned the nickname of "rustbuckets" by the mid-sixties.

Now that's a lotta bunk. The U.S. cars never had sever rust problems until the seventies when all quality went out the window (well maybe with the exception of Ford, rust that is). Much to the U.S. automakers demise. As far as Japanese autos in the sixties, they sold a bunch of crap. Their autos improved lots in the seventies just as the U.S. went downhill. I remember specifically a co-worker of mine who had a late 70's/early 80's Honda with a terminal case of 'rust cancer', my advice to him was to get rid of the car ASAP (just one example). So even though certain models improved some still had problems later than others.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by BBfanboy »

I haven't studied the progression of Japanese industrial methods but having lived through the rise of their quality reputation, I got the impression that started with their electronics when Sony produced the first transistor radios to hit the North American market. I suppose their auto sector recognized the competitive advantage that gave Sony and tried to emulate quality practices. Their labour was cheaper than North American manufacturers so that subsidized their quality programs.

And it turned out that consumers were willing to pay a few extra shekels to get something that would have fewer trips to the shop and would last longer overall.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I haven't studied the progression of Japanese industrial methods but having lived through the rise of their quality reputation, I got the impression that started with their electronics when Sony produced the first transistor radios to hit the North American market. I suppose their auto sector recognized the competitive advantage that gave Sony and tried to emulate quality practices. Their labour was cheaper than North American manufacturers so that subsidized their quality programs.

And it turned out that consumers were willing to pay a few extra shekels to get something that would have fewer trips to the shop and would last longer overall.
I agree. The Japanese were quick to realize what consumers wanted and adapt their processes, unlike Detroit.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by witpqs »

The U.S. cars never had sever rust problems until the seventies when all quality went out the window (well maybe with the exception of Ford, rust that is).
My memory is quite different. [8D]
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by Lecivius »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I haven't studied the progression of Japanese industrial methods but having lived through the rise of their quality reputation, I got the impression that started with their electronics when Sony produced the first transistor radios to hit the North American market. I suppose their auto sector recognized the competitive advantage that gave Sony and tried to emulate quality practices. Their labour was cheaper than North American manufacturers so that subsidized their quality programs.

And it turned out that consumers were willing to pay a few extra shekels to get something that would have fewer trips to the shop and would last longer overall.
I agree. The Japanese were quick to realize what consumers wanted and adapt their processes, unlike Detroit.

And now are starting to slide a bit, just like Detroit. Toyota made awesome vehicles in the 90's, tanks that would run forever. Sales went in the toilet because folks could keep their Toy's for a generation or 2. They moved into 'planned obsolescence" along with the rest of the industrial world [:(]
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I haven't studied the progression of Japanese industrial methods but having lived through the rise of their quality reputation, I got the impression that started with their electronics when Sony produced the first transistor radios to hit the North American market. I suppose their auto sector recognized the competitive advantage that gave Sony and tried to emulate quality practices. Their labour was cheaper than North American manufacturers so that subsidized their quality programs.

And it turned out that consumers were willing to pay a few extra shekels to get something that would have fewer trips to the shop and would last longer overall.
I agree. The Japanese were quick to realize what consumers wanted and adapt their processes, unlike Detroit.

And now are starting to slide a bit, just like Detroit. Toyota made awesome vehicles in the 90's, tanks that would run forever. Sales went in the toilet because folks could keep their Toy's for a generation or 2. They moved into 'planned obsolescence" along with the rest of the industrial world [:(]
Well I hope all the car makers are getting ready for the switchover to driverless cars and electric propulsion. Better to push the front edge of a trend than cling to what is becoming obsolescent.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well I hope all the car makers are getting ready for the switchover to driverless cars and electric propulsion. Better to push the front edge of a trend than cling to what is becoming obsolescent.

Yes, driver-less cars is a terrific idea. Then we don't have to go with the car when it wants to exercise itself.....[&:]...
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
The U.S. cars never had sever rust problems until the seventies when all quality went out the window (well maybe with the exception of Ford, rust that is).
My memory is quite different. [8D]

All I will say is they don't build them like they used to.

Modern car: Sneeze at it and it ends up with a giant dent and a big spot where the paint blew off.
Pre-1960's car: Drive it through a brick wall and don't even scratch it.

Ok, bit of an exaggeration, but the truth is back in the day cars were made of heavy steel, had a nice thick coat of paint, and as a general rule did stand up to use and abuse a lot better. The car I currently have had the paint at the bottom of the door frame rubbed down to bare metal within the first 3 weeks because my foot drags against it while I get in. There is just not enough paint or top coat on there to stand up to any kind of repeated contact.

I'm just glad I live in the south where we don't have a lot of snow and ice, and aren't exposed to de-icing salt as much. Cars around here do tend to stay rust free much longer, even in these modern times.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well I hope all the car makers are getting ready for the switchover to driverless cars and electric propulsion. Better to push the front edge of a trend than cling to what is becoming obsolescent.

Not looking forward to it at all. I don't want to be in a car that I have zero control over when the OS decides to have a BSoD. I realize that people driving aren't safe (there are some horrible drivers out there), but I'm not convinced a computer can do any better, after all computers are subject to software glitches and hardware failure.
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well I hope all the car makers are getting ready for the switchover to driverless cars and electric propulsion. Better to push the front edge of a trend than cling to what is becoming obsolescent.

Not looking forward to it at all. I don't want to be in a car that I have zero control over when the OS decides to have a BSoD. I realize that people driving aren't safe (there are some horrible drivers out there), but I'm not convinced a computer can do any better, after all computers are subject to software glitches and hardware failure.
Well I think they can build in some backup safeguards against disastrous failures, but there is no safeguard for human stupidity. [;)]
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well I hope all the car makers are getting ready for the switchover to driverless cars and electric propulsion. Better to push the front edge of a trend than cling to what is becoming obsolescent.

Not looking forward to it at all. I don't want to be in a car that I have zero control over when the OS decides to have a BSoD. I realize that people driving aren't safe (there are some horrible drivers out there), but I'm not convinced a computer can do any better, after all computers are subject to software glitches and hardware failure.
Well I think they can build in some backup safeguards against disastrous failures, but there is no safeguard for human stupidity. [;)]

Just remember, its humans that programmed the computer...stupidity still wins. [:'(] [;)]
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
The U.S. cars never had sever rust problems until the seventies when all quality went out the window (well maybe with the exception of Ford, rust that is).
My memory is quite different. [8D]

Well my first three ('61,'63,'67) cars all acquired in the mid to late 70's, no rust. Heck even my '73 Torino, no rust. Although my girlfriend at the time had a '75 Grenada that had a terminal case by the end of '78. Working on it one time my thumb went right through the upper part of the fender where I was leaning in for a look at something or another.[X(]
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by rustysi »

I got the impression that started with their electronics when Sony produced the first transistor radios to hit the North American market.

I remember getting my first transistor radio with some paper route money, a Panasonic. I actually think I still have it somewhere. Wonder if it'll still work? Gotta look in the garage.
I suppose their auto sector recognized the competitive advantage that gave Sony and tried to emulate quality practices. Their labour was cheaper than North American manufacturers so that subsidized their quality programs.

In actuality the Japanese government back then started to subsidize various target industries to improve their quality and thus make them more competitive.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: witpqs
The U.S. cars never had sever rust problems until the seventies when all quality went out the window (well maybe with the exception of Ford, rust that is).
My memory is quite different. [8D]

All I will say is they don't build them like they used to.

Modern car: Sneeze at it and it ends up with a giant dent and a big spot where the paint blew off.
Pre-1960's car: Drive it through a brick wall and don't even scratch it.

Ok, bit of an exaggeration, but the truth is back in the day cars were made of heavy steel, had a nice thick coat of paint, and as a general rule did stand up to use and abuse a lot better. The car I currently have had the paint at the bottom of the door frame rubbed down to bare metal within the first 3 weeks because my foot drags against it while I get in. There is just not enough paint or top coat on there to stand up to any kind of repeated contact.

I'm just glad I live in the south where we don't have a lot of snow and ice, and aren't exposed to de-icing salt as much. Cars around here do tend to stay rust free much longer, even in these modern times.
As far as the vehicle standing up to bangs & bruises, sure. But not rust. I was a kid in Boston in the 1960's and I remember lots and lots of rust. Plenty of salt used on streets and roads in winter to counter lots of snow and ice. So many cars would just rust, rust, rust!
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers?

Post by MakeeLearn »

A Chinese Panzer I bogged down during training around June 1937.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/c ... e-service/
"15 Panzer I Ausf.A’s were sold to the Kuomintang in mid or late 1936, but they only arrived in June 1937 because the Chinese ordnance department was so poorly organized. These tanks were in horrible condition. The Chinese paid 1.03 million Reichsmarks for the tanks (about US$25 million in today’s money), but they were shipped poorly and were not protected from the elements."


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