The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

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Lowpe
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Are my CV TF commanders too good? [:D]

I understand you don't want the sweeping ahead in a large strike package, but I think your strike package as I read it, actually encouraged sweeping ahead to occur. Anyhow, to your point, I think you want slightly different skills for escort commanders as opposed to CAP commanders, but who really has the PP to spare to achieve that?

7K is too high to stop 2K bombing attacks.

You mention you are in attack mode, my point.

Rex are great but in an offensive strike package they are like anchors for the strike group, imho.
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Lecivius
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Lecivius »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Are my CV TF commanders too good? [:D]

Naw, the game is handicapping you due to your Uberness [;)][:D]
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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obvert
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

Are my CV TF commanders too good? [:D]

I understand you don't want the sweeping ahead in a large strike package, but I think your strike package as I read it, actually encouraged sweeping ahead to occur. Anyhow, to your point, I think you want slightly different skills for escort commanders as opposed to CAP commanders, but who really has the PP to spare to achieve that?

My strike package is the same as agains the DS, and there was no sweeping ahead in either of those strikes or in any strike previously ,and this was a 5 hexes, so normal range for the A6M8. This seems the crux for me, that if I compare the previous strikes there is no difference in my setup, but there is a big difference in outcome due to the sweeping.

I feel like this happens when I have great coordination. I know how to achieve that, but I've never seen this kind of result, and it appears weird to both Dan and I. That makes me think it's an unusual situation.

7K is too high to stop 2K bombing attacks.

You mention you are in attack mode, my point.

Rex are great but in an offensive strike package they are like anchors for the strike group, imho.

Now that the base forces are all converted and some more radar is being distributed, I can imagine some better efforts, but even with decent fighters, radar and lots of AA the bombers are getting through.

I've spread fighters across all of the HI, and there are NF in key spots, plus some Pete groups on night duty. We'll see how it goes. At least he's hitting AC factories now, and not as much HI/LI.
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Aurorus
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Aurorus »

Could you post a full combat report, including the altitudes at which his CAP scrambles for the various strikes? I have never played the late game, but it is possible that the air-combat is too spread out in altitude. For example, you strike comes in at 16K while your LRCAP and Sweeps are at 35K. What may be happening is that some of his fighters are scrambled to the higher alititude during the sweeps. Not many of his fighters reach the altitude in time to participate in the battle: so a short battle occurs. This leaves his fighters spread out over various altitude bands below 35K after the short battle. Then your strike comes in at 16K. Many of these spread-out allied fighters dive on your strike. Your high altitude fighters are unable to reach the allied fighters diving down from lower altitudes, but your high altitude fighters are using up "passes," even though they are unable to engage because his fighters are diving as well. For example, your high-altitude fighters are diving down to 25K to engage his fighters, but his fighters have have dived to 16K, so no combat occurs, but your fighters use a "pass."

Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Alfred »

I don't put forward theories.  I search for what the devs say and present that.
 
There is no true loiter in the game.  Nor is fuel consumption truly represented as it is not tracked.  The air combat model abstracts both into the number of passes.
 
Assume two different aircraft models.  Model "A" has a normal range of 4 hexes and model "B" has a normal range of 6 hexes.  If both fly out to 4 hexes, "A" will have fewer passes than "B" because "A" is at 100% of its fuel "allowance" whereas "B" is only at 66% and therefore has more fuel in "reserve" to allow it to stay longer in combat.  If only model "A" was involved and the distance was only 2 hexes, there would be more passes than if the combat occurred 3 hexes away.  At 4 hexes there would be even fewer passes than at 3 hexes.
 
However distance is not the only relevant factor.  Altitude and climb rate is also important.  Your sweeps are coming in at almost 35k.  Your opponent is presumably employing a layered CAP and it is very unlikely that he has much, if any, CAP set that high.  By the time his CAP has climbed to meet your A6M8 sweepers they may well have exhausted most if not all their available time on station (aka loiter) which is abstracted by number of available passes.
 
Escorting fighters which are much faster than the bombers can arrive earlier than the bombers.  When flying with little "fuel in reserve" those escorts may not be around when the CAP gets into position in time to meet the slower bombers.  The combat animation will not show these "out of fuel" fighters which have not been engaged in combat as leaving the combat animation.
 
The point about flying sweepers, LRCAP or escorts is to fly them at altitudes where they can meet the enemy fighters.  It is pointless to fly sweepers at 35k if the enemy CAP is layered at 20k and below.  Especially if your own bombers are flying at well under 20k.
 
Alfred
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Lowpe
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Lowpe »

Really sweet explanation there, Alfred.[&o]

I have often thought that mixing fighters of greatly differing attributes to cause the best planes in the mix to under perform. Is this a possibility, or is that too vague with too many variables?

For units on a strike package only, that meet from different bases and form up, does one unit impact the number of passes for the other units? For example they all do one pass and retire together as a group?

Or could the slowest cruise squadron impact the cruise speed for the entire strike package that forms up in effect shortening the number of passes (perhaps using potential "passes" to form up into a larger strike group)?

Optimum strikes always occur when there is no fighters present, and very little flak. Once enemy CAP is present the range (and warning times) become very critical to a successful strike....plus all the other variables: weather, altitude, skill, etc., etc., etc.

By far and and away the best, close, fighter escorts I ever get are from a single fighter model and all fighters and bombers flying from the same base or task force, same altitude, and not using drop tanks and inside normal range. Normally all those fighters have to be knocked out of the air before the enemy fighters are into the bombers.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

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obvert
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't put forward theories.  I search for what the devs say and present that.

There is no true loiter in the game.  Nor is fuel consumption truly represented as it is not tracked.  The air combat model abstracts both into the number of passes.

Assume two different aircraft models.  Model "A" has a normal range of 4 hexes and model "B" has a normal range of 6 hexes.  If both fly out to 4 hexes, "A" will have fewer passes than "B" because "A" is at 100% of its fuel "allowance" whereas "B" is only at 66% and therefore has more fuel in "reserve" to allow it to stay longer in combat.  If only model "A" was involved and the distance was only 2 hexes, there would be more passes than if the combat occurred 3 hexes away.  At 4 hexes there would be even fewer passes than at 3 hexes.

The A6M8 were at 5 hexes set as escort with drop tanks, so normal range. All planes at 15k.

This is the same overall strike setting as the 8 hex strike and the later 4 hex strike with the same planes, same pilots, same group leaders, same TF commanders, in which the escorting A6M8 "lingered" for so many passes I eventually had to escape the combat to see if my strikes made it through (out of impatience). They were loooooong combats.
However distance is not the only relevant factor.  Altitude and climb rate is also important.  Your sweeps are coming in at almost 35k.  Your opponent is presumably employing a layered CAP and it is very unlikely that he has much, if any, CAP set that high.  By the time his CAP has climbed to meet your A6M8 sweepers they may well have exhausted most if not all their available time on station (aka loiter) which is abstracted by number of available passes.

High sweeps are LBA. Jacks highest, Oscars next, then Georges and Franks a bit lower. All at max though. Trying to get CAP up and out of place to stop the KB strike at 15k.

A6M8 are at 15k, set as escorts. All strike planes also at 15k.

His CAP is mostly at mid-level with some groups at max (Corsairs higher than my highest) and lots between 10-25k.

Interestingly, some of his CAP is not even listed in the reports. The P-38s don't show up at all in the CAP group messages, but some were shot down, and they show up in the overall numbers. Hmm. [&:]

Escorting fighters which are much faster than the bombers can arrive earlier than the bombers.  When flying with little "fuel in reserve" those escorts may not be around when the CAP gets into position in time to meet the slower bombers.  The combat animation will not show these "out of fuel" fighters which have not been engaged in combat as leaving the combat animation.

In addition to the A6M8 I've got D4Y3/4 and Graces, plus the slower Jills. They all arrived together, well coordinated and protected for both strikes on the DS, and in fact did arrive as coordinated strike package in the two Shikuka strikes, but the A6M8 came in as cooperating sweepers and then the passes were significantly reduced.

The point about flying sweepers, LRCAP or escorts is to fly them at altitudes where they can meet the enemy fighters.  It is pointless to fly sweepers at 35k if the enemy CAP is layered at 20k and below.  Especially if your own bombers are flying at well under 20k.

Alfred

Flying sweepers high that arrive before strikes send the CAP all over the place. I can see this in the messages (below) and also does get the bounce on the lower level CAP. This is standard for striking a big base with 500+ planes and was used extensively against me before I adopted it myself. In this case copying is the greatest form of flattery. It has previously worked well.

One other thing to note is that during the main afternoon strike Dan was upset as his CAP never fully arrived before the strikes got through. It was only about half present based on total numbers indicated. Again this comes from watching the replay.

Here is the full CR. Sorry for the detailed SPAM. I wish players could just watch, as both Dan and I realise something is a bit NQR, and we've seen a lot of turns between us.

[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 11, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 194 NM, estimated altitude 37,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes (Incredibly good detection tie of course, with about 100 radars in hex! [X(])

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
J2M3 Jack x 30
N1K1-J George x 34 (sweeping)
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 46
Ki-100-I Tony x 32

All of these set to max altitude to get the bounce and continue to draw CAP up.

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 75
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 77
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 131
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
34 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 54 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 7 on standby, 6 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 40380.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 39400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 19 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (11 airborne, 20 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 38380.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 72 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 35400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 36800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 22140 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (3 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 38440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 199 NM, estimated altitude 35,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 45 (sweepers)
Ki-100-I Tony x 44 (sweepers)

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 75
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 122
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
34 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
10 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 3 on standby, 10 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 22000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 114 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 39400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 19 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 40400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (10 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 36000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 63 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 1 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 63 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 3 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 36800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 36800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 22140 and 38000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 35000 and 38000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 185 NM, estimated altitude 34,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 17
Ki-84a Frank x 33
Ki-100-I Tony x 28

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 74
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 3 on standby, 11 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 59 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 11 on standby, 8 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (13 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (2 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 38380 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 1 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 57 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 3 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (2 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 22140 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 52 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 23
A6M5 Zero x 8
A6M5c Zero x 28 (escort)
A6M8 Zero x 433 (set as escort and messaged as sweeping, arriving before "strike")
D4Y3 Judy x 4
N1K1 Rex x 23 (escort)
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2
Ki-100-I Tony x 44

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 64
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 73
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 2 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

CAP engaged:
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 33000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
21st FG/46th FS with P-38J Lightning (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 40000 , scrambling fighters to 40440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (16 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 39400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 37000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 38400.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (7 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 40000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
347th FG/67th FS with P-38J Lightning (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 33440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (11 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (18 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
18 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 22140.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
18th FG/44th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 32100.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
21st FG/72nd FS with P-38J Lightning (10 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 40000 , scrambling fighters to 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 12 (LR CAP ~35k)
A6M5c Zero x 28 ( 15k escort)
A6M8 Zero x 431 ( 15k set as escort and messaged as sweeping, arriving before "strike")
B6N2a Jill x 14
D4Y1 Judy x 14
D4Y3 Judy x 30
D4Y4 Judy x 34
J2M3 Jack x 7 (LR CAP ~38k)
N1K1 Rex x 23 ( 15k escort)

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 66
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 76
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 21
F4U-1A Corsair x 123
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 2 destroyed Very few A6M8 destroyed should be the obvious indicator something is wrong here. Also, combat so short hat LR CAP did not have time to dive, as I've seen them do on countless occasions in a similar setup
B6N2a Jill: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 12 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 8 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak[/color]

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Mississippi, Bomb hits 1
CA Boston
CL Trenton
SC PC-790
DD Boyd
SC PC-788
DD Miller
DD Brownson
BB New Mexico
DD Brown

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
4 x B6N2a Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb
8 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
2 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb
2 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
1 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VMF-314 with F4U-1 Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 19 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (8 airborne, 22 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36900 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
No.898 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 17000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 17000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

+1

About 450 strike planes were set, but unfortunately did not all fly. This is likely due to the saturation of TFs at Shikuka, confusing recon/search and diluting the DL among many TFs. Note, the second, afternoon strike was much better as DL rose throughout the turn.

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Could you post a full combat report, including the altitudes at which his CAP scrambles for the various strikes? I have never played the late game, but it is possible that the air-combat is too spread out in altitude. For example, you strike comes in at 16K while your LRCAP and Sweeps are at 35K. What may be happening is that some of his fighters are scrambled to the higher alititude during the sweeps. Not many of his fighters reach the altitude in time to participate in the battle: so a short battle occurs. This leaves his fighters spread out over various altitude bands below 35K after the short battle. Then your strike comes in at 16K. Many of these spread-out allied fighters dive on your strike. Your high altitude fighters are unable to reach the allied fighters diving down from lower altitudes, but your high altitude fighters are using up "passes," even though they are unable to engage because his fighters are diving as well. For example, your high-altitude fighters are diving down to 25K to engage his fighters, but his fighters have have dived to 16K, so no combat occurs, but your fighters use a "pass."

Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

As shown in the annotated CR the main strike included only a few LR CAP groups set high, but the CAP would have been "spread out" for a while by previous sweeps.

My A6M8, with 430 the bulk of the fighters present, are at 15k with the strike package. They should have been there for diving fighters to hit as they arrived at the correct altitude. As mentioned, though, the CAP never fully arrived either since the combat was so short.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Also, having far more escorts than bombers is one of the variables, it seems to me, that induces fighters to sweep ahead.

+1
diluting the DL among many TFs.

An interesting thought there.

Do you have any dinah at max altitude searching there?

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Aurorus »

I think that I have an idea what happened. I had a very similar result once with A6M2s sweeping ahead of DBs. The A6M2s hardly engaged and the DBs were decimated. In my case, as in yours, the raid came in under CAP that was patrolling or had scrambled much higher.

I think the phenomenon derives from a problem with how the game handles detection times and fighters sweeping ahead. The fighters sweeping ahead and the actual raid are treated as one combat. I think that the detection time is applied to the bombers, but is not applied to the fighters sweeping ahead of the bombers. As a result, enemies do not respond properly to fighters sweeping ahead. Sweeping fighters will climb, but only a little (not like CAP) to attack enemy fighters. In this case, as in mine, there seem to be few enemy fighters near the altitidue of the Zekes sweeping ahead, so the Zekes climb a little, find few enemies, and retire. The sweep ahead is wasted. The CAP fighters then react to the bombers who suffer from having few escorts.

In this case, it seems, you did not intend to induce the fighters to sweep ahead and were the victim of unfortunate circumstances when most of the bombers failed to fly.

Something to try, to test this theory, would be to have independent fighter sweeps come in low, ahead of a raid in which you induce fighters to sweep ahead. This will draw CAP down, and if they are not responding properly to the sweep ahead, the sweep ahead should then be able to bounce the enemy fighters. I will have to try this at the next opportunity.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: Lowpe




+1
diluting the DL among many TFs.

An interesting thought there.

Do you have any dinah at max altitude searching there?


I have 3-4 Judy_C, about 3-4 Dinah III groups, and 3 x Emily search, plus about 100 night search FP, another 100 day search FP, and the KB search too.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

I think that I have an idea what happened. I had a very similar result once with A6M2s sweeping ahead of DBs. The A6M2s hardly engaged and the DBs were decimated. In my case, as in yours, the raid came in under CAP that was patrolling or had scrambled much higher.

I think the phenomenon derives from a problem with how the game handles detection times and fighters sweeping ahead. The fighters sweeping ahead and the actual raid are treated as one combat. I think that the detection time is applied to the bombers, but is not applied to the fighters sweeping ahead of the bombers. As a result, enemies do not respond properly to fighters sweeping ahead. Sweeping fighters will climb, but only a little (not like CAP) to attack enemy fighters. In this case, as in mine, there seem to be few enemy fighters near the altitidue of the Zekes sweeping ahead, so the Zekes climb a little, find few enemies, and retire. The sweep ahead is wasted. The CAP fighters then react to the bombers who suffer from having few escorts.

In this case, it seems, you did not intend to induce the fighters to sweep ahead and were the victim of unfortunate circumstances when most of the bombers failed to fly.

Something to try, to test this theory, would be to have independent fighter sweeps come in low, ahead of a raid in which you induce fighters to sweep ahead. This will draw CAP down, and if they are not responding properly to the sweep ahead, the sweep ahead should then be able to bounce the enemy fighters. I will have to try this at the next opportunity.

Well, a lot of fighters were still there. It is a 500-600 plane CAP. So it's not exactly vacant skies at any level. In the replay it's more like it begins, things are starting to look like a furrball, then the CAP suddenly breaks through the escort, hits a whole bunch of bombers while the fighters do nothing (also weird) and then it's over and we move to the strikes.

The sweep circumstance may occur due to the limited strikes, for sure, but the rest is just fishy.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Aurorus »

Yes. It appears that at least two of the combats may have been "merged" and hence allocated only 1 group of passes for both combats. Notice the Judies and A6M8s "sweeping ahead" in the combat report prior to the actual Judy raid: a combat report that lists the only "attacking aircraft" as 16 Tony 100s sweeping at 34,400 feet. Elements of the Judy strike package should not be appearing in that combat report.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Yes. It appears that at least two of the combats may have been "merged" and hence allocated only 1 group of passes for both combats. Notice the Judies and A6M8s "sweeping ahead" in the combat report prior to the actual Judy raid: a combat report that lists the only "attacking aircraft" as 16 Tony 100s sweeping at 34,400 feet. Elements of the Judy strike package should not be appearing in that combat report.

That is the morning "strike." That's how many planes flew out of the entire KB, all set to strike and well rested, with high morale.

So it' more a question of what are the Ki-100 doing there?
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Aurorus »

It may have been a simple matter of your computer diverting significant processing power to another task (such as an anti-virus or some automated Windows process) at the moment that the combat report was generating, which created an error that merged two strikes into one.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Lokasenna »

If you think DL of the TFs is a prime factor in very few of your strike planes flying...

Have you tried flying lots of recon over the base? Recon planes are far less likely to get shot down than search planes, and will achieve reasonably high levels of DL on TFs in base hexes. I do it all the time.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Really sweet explanation there, Alfred.[&o]

I have often thought that mixing fighters of greatly differing attributes to cause the best planes in the mix to under perform. Is this a possibility, or is that too vague with too many variables?

For units on a strike package only, that meet from different bases and form up, does one unit impact the number of passes for the other units? For example they all do one pass and retire together as a group?

Or could the slowest cruise squadron impact the cruise speed for the entire strike package that forms up in effect shortening the number of passes (perhaps using potential "passes" to form up into a larger strike group)?

Optimum strikes always occur when there is no fighters present, and very little flak. Once enemy CAP is present the range (and warning times) become very critical to a successful strike....plus all the other variables: weather, altitude, skill, etc., etc., etc.

By far and and away the best, close, fighter escorts I ever get are from a single fighter model and all fighters and bombers flying from the same base or task force, same altitude, and not using drop tanks and inside normal range. Normally all those fighters have to be knocked out of the air before the enemy fighters are into the bombers.

Combat passes and related issues such as how long an aircraft may stay in the fight before leaving is one of the more opaque aspects of AE. Very little has been disclosed by the devs.

When shipped, the maximum number of air combat passes was 200. This was essentially an "arbitrary" number chosen by michaelm. Subsequently, circa 2011, this maximum number was increased to 300, another "arbitrary" number. Although I say "arbitrary" one must understand that michaelm had to take into account non direct combat considerations. As so much else in the game, it is an abstraction which needs to accommodate things like "loiter time", "fuel reserve", CPU processing demands, the design change from classical WITP of witnessing huge slugfests to the AE paradigm of raids, to mention only some relevant considerations.

The number of passes is the theoretical maximum number possible. Most air combat stops well short of the maximum. In part this is because each pass involves a flight and up to 8 aircraft can constitute a flight, so a theoretical maximum number of 2400 aircraft could participate in combat. Which means with absolute certainty, that sending more than 2400 aircraft guarantees the excess will not participate in combat.

However the number of 2400 is somewhat rubbery as I don't recall the devs ever clarifying whether the flight was cut out of the total number of aircraft present or out of the number of aircraft in each unit. IOW if 4 air units, each of 12 aircraft, are in combat is the number of flights 6 [(4x12)/8] or is it 4 [(12/8)(4)] if rounded down or 8 if rounded up. I suspect it is unit based and rounded down but I don't have access to the code.

Then of course there is the ubiquitous die rolls which can certainly reduce combat to much less than 300 passes.

A variable which I did not specifically mention in my previous post is pilot fatigue which can have a detrimental effect on pilot skill levels. Of particular relevance here is that flying aircraft at or close to their maximum altitude level will, in of itself, further increase pilot fatigue with a consequent impairment of combat performance in that combat. Where this additional pilot fatigue clicks in exactly is somewhat unclear as michaelm has in two separate posts stated that 75% and 80% of the maximum aircraft model altitude is the threshold for this additional malus.

The additional pilot fatigue brought about by flying too high complicates the organising of flight operations. Send two different fighter models, model "A" having a maximum altitude of 30k and model "B" being 40k, into combat at 24k will see the pilots flying model "A" accruing this additional fatigue whereas the model "B" pilots will not be so afflicted. Ceteris paribus, the "A" unit will perform worse (which can include RTB earlier than otherwise, missing their opponents, more prone to being shot down etc) in that specific combat.

The altitude fatigue is a deliberate design feature intended to minimise the unhistorical and unrealistic practice of many players flying their fighter sweeps at maximum altitude. When combined with distance flown from airfield to target, the greater the distance flown the more pilot fatigue is accrued, a substantial increase in pilot fatigue (whose new quantum is not disclosed to the player) can result in quite a poor combat performance which comes in well under player expectations. These are all design decisions intended to reduce the slugfests of classical WITP.

Another design decision is that even when sufficient escorting fighters are present, flying close to base with no fatigue problems and at appropriate altitudes, with excellent leaders etc, the algorithms are written to provide a chance for the CAP to eventually bypass the escorts and tangle with the bombers. The classical WITP feature that CAP had to defeat all of the escorting fighters before it could tangle with the bombers, does not exist in AE.

As to one air unit impacting on the performance of another friendly air unit, that is not how air combat is generally handled in AE. Individual units perform on the basis of their individual characteristics derived from their own leaders, pilot ratings, aircraft model stats. Of course if a Top Gun unit is present at the start of combat and it eliminates the best enemy aircraft, later arriving non Top Gun friendly units will probably find it easier to rack up kills against lesser quality opponents in that combat.

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you think DL of the TFs is a prime factor in very few of your strike planes flying...

Have you tried flying lots of recon over the base? Recon planes are far less likely to get shot down than search planes, and will achieve reasonably high levels of DL on TFs in base hexes. I do it all the time.
I've got about 5-6 recon groups flying. It looks (or seems) like my DL is okay, as the rollover shows BB TFs, CA TFs, etc, plus all kinds of other transport and ASW types, but it's the only thing I can think of that is limiting the strikes. I also can't tell how much is here since it runs off of my screen and there could be another 20 TFs I can't see.

When I hit the DS I had much less DL because I took a risk to rely on LBA and FP search and set ALL strike planes to attack, 0 search. Rare that I do that, and now I have all DBs on 10% search, which is decent in addition to the recon and Emily and FP search.
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