TOAW III Owners

The sequel of the legendary wargame with a complete graphics and interface overhaul, major new gameplay and design features such as full naval combat modelling, improved supply handling, numerous increases to scenario parameters to better support large scenarios, and integrated PBEM++.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5300
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!

part one:



Image
Attachments
ScreenHunt..1411.56.jpg
ScreenHunt..1411.56.jpg (114.84 KiB) Viewed 121 times
http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5300
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!

part two:



Image
Attachments
ScreenHunt..1411.56.jpg
ScreenHunt..1411.56.jpg (114.06 KiB) Viewed 121 times
http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.
User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Portugal

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Franciscus »

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards
Former AJE team member
Oberst_Klink
Posts: 4839
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:37 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards
Not that I am personally aware of it. Usually, if there were changes, regardless of III or IV, the active scenario designer would state them in the documentation. So, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

Klink, Oberst
My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.
User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Portugal

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Franciscus »

Well, then I would like Bob Cross to say something about what's up (if anything) with the North Africa scenarios, as I was about to start myself a 40-43 campaign...


Regards
Former AJE team member
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 13846
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards
Some withdrawals do not show up on the Expected Reinforcement dialog. No change to which units withdraw.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards
Not that I am personally aware of it. Usually, if there were changes, regardless of III or IV, the active scenario designer would state them in the documentation. So, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

Klink, Oberst
warspite1

What? Are you suggesting I'm lying? What an arrogantly dismissive statement.....

Yes Franciscus, the Australian 6th Infantry's withdrawal is not showing on the schedule. I believe this problem may affect some others too but of that I am not certain as I haven't cross checked what I believe to be the case - However, of the missing Australians I am 100% certain, regardless of whatever anyone else may be personally aware of [8|].
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!

part two:



Image
warspite1

Thanks ever so much Lobster [&o][&o]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Portugal

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Franciscus »

Ups, I didn't mean to start a war [&:]

But it is clear that expected reinforcements/withdrawals do not all show up in the respective dialog, at least in the North African campaign scenario (s?)

So I would only like to know if this is going to be corrected - either if it is a scenario specific mistake or a conversion (3->4) bug...


Regards
Former AJE team member
DanNeely
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:05 am

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by DanNeely »

I could be mistaken, but I think it might be down to a limit of the TOAW engine/scenario capabilities. IIRC you can only schedule an arrival or departure turn using the simple mechanism that populates the expected reinforcement/withdrawal dialog. Having a unit both come and go requires the withdrawal to be done via an event. Event driven withdrawals (and deployments) aren't aren't shown in that dialog because they can be much more complex than just "turn X". (eg you could have a unit deploy/withdraw if location A was captured by side 1 on turn Z, and location B by side 1 on turn Y, and either location C was held by side 2 on turn X or location D was held by side 2 on turn X, or side 1 used theater option Has-5-conditions-I'm-not-listing-here before turn X-5.)

The word document attached to the scenario includes a reinforcement/withdrawal table that I believe is intended to capture the behavior that can't be covered fully in game.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man ... weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not [it] an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Portugal

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Franciscus »

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

I could be mistaken, but I think it might be down to a limit of the TOAW engine/scenario capabilities. IIRC you can only schedule an arrival or departure turn using the simple mechanism that populates the expected reinforcement/withdrawal dialog. Having a unit both come and go requires the withdrawal to be done via an event. Event driven withdrawals (and deployments) aren't aren't shown in that dialog because they can be much more complex than just "turn X". (eg you could have a unit deploy/withdraw if location A was captured by side 1 on turn Z, and location B by side 1 on turn Y, and either location C was held by side 2 on turn X or location D was held by side 2 on turn X, or side 1 used theater option Has-5-conditions-I'm-not-listing-here before turn X-5.)

The word document attached to the scenario includes a reinforcement/withdrawal table that I believe is intended to capture the behavior that can't be covered fully in game.


I understand your reasoning.

But, as Lobster posted, the missing withdrawals in TOAW4 version appear in TOAW3 version of the same scenario reinforcements dialog...
Former AJE team member
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

I could be mistaken, but I think it might be down to a limit of the TOAW engine/scenario capabilities. IIRC you can only schedule an arrival or departure turn using the simple mechanism that populates the expected reinforcement/withdrawal dialog. Having a unit both come and go requires the withdrawal to be done via an event. Event driven withdrawals (and deployments) aren't aren't shown in that dialog because they can be much more complex than just "turn X". (eg you could have a unit deploy/withdraw if location A was captured by side 1 on turn Z, and location B by side 1 on turn Y, and either location C was held by side 2 on turn X or location D was held by side 2 on turn X, or side 1 used theater option Has-5-conditions-I'm-not-listing-here before turn X-5.)

The word document attached to the scenario includes a reinforcement/withdrawal table that I believe is intended to capture the behavior that can't be covered fully in game.


I understand your reasoning.

But, as Lobster posted, the missing withdrawals in TOAW4 version appear in TOAW3 version of the same scenario reinforcements dialog...
warspite1

This is nothing to do with event driven withdrawals. The 6th Australian Division, like the 2nd New Zealand Division, was withdrawn for the ill-fated expedition to Greece.

In game, this division's withdrawal does not appear on the unit Reinforcement Table. If people want to take what I say "with a pinch of salt" then fine they can do that. But Bob Cross has confirmed what I've said in this thread and Olorin has confirmed what I've said, in my original AAR. There is no need for theories. The data, across two reference points (the Reinforcement Table and the Documentation) is simply missing and/or incomplete. That is all. I only started this thread because I need to know for my current PBEM when exactly I'm going to be losing one of my key units!!

The schedule from TOAW III helpfully provided by Lobster indicates that the units of the division disappear between turns 47 and 51. This confirms what Olorin stated about withdrawal by brigade (rather than the division as a whole). Armed with that information, if I then refer to the Documentation, I can see that this mentions various withdrawals on turn 47, 49 and 51 - although only the withdrawal on Turn 49 has any mention of '6th Aus Div' and there is no mention of which brigade is withdrawn. Because of what people have said, I now know that the two blank withdrawals either side also refer to the Australians but to an unsuspecting player could mean anything. Indeed, as I found when playing for the first time, I only looked at the Reinforcement Table (there was no obvious need to check whether this would have been incorrect by referring also to the Documentation) and assumed this was correct. When playing the AI then ok that's annoying. When playing a human player this sort of thing is a game changer.

So its really simple. As to the Australian 6th Infantry Division, the reinforcement schedule in TOAW IV is incorrect and the documentation is only partially complete.

So yes, like Franciscus I too am hoping that this can be fixed in a patch soon.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

Sorry to be a pain, but can anyone with access to TOAW III have a look at the 9th Australian Division in the CFNA 1940-43 secnario. I am looking to see if the Aussie units from this division disappear between turn 65 and say 90.

I am now on Turn 77 and I believe that at some point 24th Brigade (and its 3 battalions) and the divisional supporting artillery, anti-tank and AA went away from about turn 65 onwards. I suspect the two remaining battalions - the 20th and 26th - will be going in the coming weeks but this doesn't show on the reinforcement and withdrawal schedule. Once again the documentation is unclear and so it would be good to see the schedule so I can fill in the blanks [:)]

Thanks in advance.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Nicholas Bell
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:21 pm
Location: Eagle River, Alaska

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Nicholas Bell »

Only looks like the 70th is being pulled out.


Image
Attachments
screenshot.2.jpg
screenshot.2.jpg (1.86 MiB) Viewed 123 times
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

Hi - thanks for this but I think this is the wrong scenario as the dates don't correspond. The game scenario is Campaign For North Africa 40D-43, I'm at turn 77 and its the beginning of September 1941. (it would have helped if I'd made that clear - sorry).
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Nicholas Bell
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:21 pm
Location: Eagle River, Alaska

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Nicholas Bell »

I see the 6th Aus leaving turn 27, the 70th turn 47-49, and the Polish Bde withdrawing turn 105 - early December. That's it in the 40D-43 scenario for this period.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by warspite1 »

Okay thanks for looking - obviously bigger issues than just the Aus 6th, but now the Aus 7th too.

Below to prove I'm not going mad here are those units on the map on turn 67 and by turn 77 one brigade and the support units had gone - no warning.

Not the sort of info one wants to be without in a PBEM.

Image
Attachments
Untitled.jpg
Untitled.jpg (137.94 KiB) Viewed 123 times
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Portugal

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by Franciscus »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards
Some withdrawals do not show up on the Expected Reinforcement dialog. No change to which units withdraw.

So the question remains...

Why ???
Former AJE team member
User avatar
larryfulkerson
Posts: 40907
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:06 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ,usa,sol, milkyway
Contact:

RE: TOAW III Owners

Post by larryfulkerson »

I've always thought it rude to take units away without any warning
or even a thank you.
Interviewer: "What is your greatest weakness?"
Elderly Gentleman: "My honesty."
Interviewer: "Well I hardly think that could be a weakness."
Elderly Gentleman: "I don't give a fuck what you think."
Post Reply

Return to “The Operational Art of War IV”