In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

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TheGrayMouser
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by TheGrayMouser »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: TheGrayMouser

I think the key is the game is "operational". The logic is that rivers are generally not simply "linear obstacle" but wiggle and waggle and have "mass" with in the confines of a hex. Since the game is modern combat with dispersed formations that generally do NOT want to clump up, everybody being all on one side or the other of a river wiggle or waggle doesnt really matter. The penalties represent barriers to communications and movement, ie it is not a moat.

For every picture you show of an exaggerated meander I can show you one that does not. Here's the Mississippi. What's your point?



Image

Sure, much easier to flippantly post a pic than to discuss what I actually said.

This game was a wargame construction kit with a huge range of hex scale. For rivers to be hexside, you likley would need unique rules for every scale. Obvioulsy opinions will vary over the abstractions, yet the mechanic as is now hardly seems flawed.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by RFalvo69 »

Talking of paradoxes, if I do pay the MP penalty after I cross the river - i.e. when I do leave the river hex, why should pay it when I do retreat back to the original hex? After all, I still had to cross the river...
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Talking of paradoxes, if I do pay the MP penalty after I cross the river - i.e. when I do leave the river hex, why should pay it when I do retreat back to the original hex? After all, I still had to cross the river...

You've pointed out yet another of the paradoxes presented by in hex rivers. What side of the river are you on? No way of knowing. It's so abstracted that there's no way of knowing. There is so much abstraction surrounding rivers that you can basically make up whatever excuse you want to cover what happens. Rivers are fairly formidable obstacles. They should not be abstracted.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Nicholas Bell »

It's pretty sad we're having this discussion at all. The "argument" over in-hex vs hexside rivers was decided almost 50 years ago by board wargame designers. Even Avalon Hill stopped using in-hex rivers in non-tactical games (where they may at times make sense). Since the 1970's, out of the 100's of operation/strategic level board wargames published, how many use in-hex rivers?

What we are dealing with is a poor decision by Norm Koger made over 20 years ago. All his previous designs also used in-hex rivers. His explanation of why he made the choice is so laughable it smacks of nothing more than an excuse to cover something. Whether that is his out-of-step distorted design philosophy or his inability to figure out how to code it, or whatever, is anyone's guess.

That being said, it's obvious that for whatever reason, Ralph and Bob decided to not change this aspect of TOAW, and certainly are not going to now with this version.

So how about revising the design in the next iteration, ie "TOAW 5"? Maybe it's time to break away from the series (a new name included), use the existing code (much which is brilliant) to the fullest extent possible to come up with a truly up-to-date version which fixes this issue and many of the others people have noted over the years. Wrap that up with an easy to use editor which permits deeper user modification and I'll lay down $60-80 without hesitation. For sure, the scenario pool would be unusable, but with a good editor I can see that problem disappearing over time.

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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by winkr7 »

shouldn't roads be on hex sides too then?
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by JWW »

With respect to all, this reads like a Steam thread that will be argued for three months or longer and in multiple threads (there are already two here) with no changes being made, since it appears it would be very difficult to make the change. My way of dealing with it is just working with the rule. It is a game, after all, and a really great game. Yes, hexside rivers would seem to be a better way to do it, but we have in-hex rivers and have to deal with them. Ironically, I just finished a Blitzkrieg 1950 scenario and then looked online at the original AH board game, which I truly loved a long time ago, and it used the in-hex river hexes. Yes, I know how old the board game is, about 55 years now. I just found that to be kind of funny.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: winkr7

shouldn't roads be on hex sides too then?

[:D] Good thing you're just joking.

You are joking right?
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

With respect to all, this reads like a Steam thread that will be argued for three months or longer and in multiple threads (there are already two here) with no changes being made, since it appears it would be very difficult to make the change. My way of dealing with it is just working with the rule. It is a game, after all, and a really great game. Yes, hexside rivers would seem to be a better way to do it, but we have in-hex rivers and have to deal with them. Ironically, I just finished a Blitzkrieg 1950 scenario and then looked online at the original AH board game, which I truly loved a long time ago, and it used the in-hex river hexes. Yes, I know how old the board game is, about 55 years now. I just found that to be kind of funny.

The naval changes had been discussed for years. Battle time stamp was the result of a long discussion about time and movement. Many if not all of the changes are there because they were hashed over for a long time. Years and years. Problem is, you can change a board game's rules with a few hand written paragraphs. A computer game is not so easily changed. So a programmers time has to be budgeted based on what is easiest and more reasonable that improves the game to function in a real world manner as much as is possible with a IGOUGO very very old game. There is more to come, you can be sure of that. [;)]
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

With respect to all, this reads like a Steam thread that will be argued for three months or longer and in multiple threads (there are already two here) with no changes being made, since it appears it would be very difficult to make the change. My way of dealing with it is just working with the rule. It is a game, after all, and a really great game. Yes, hexside rivers would seem to be a better way to do it, but we have in-hex rivers and have to deal with them. Ironically, I just finished a Blitzkrieg 1950 scenario and then looked online at the original AH board game, which I truly loved a long time ago, and it used the in-hex river hexes. Yes, I know how old the board game is, about 55 years now. I just found that to be kind of funny.

The naval changes had been discussed for years. Battle time stamp was the result of a long discussion about time and movement. Many if not all of the changes are there because they were hashed over for a long time. Years and years. Problem is, you can change a board game's rules with a few hand written paragraphs. A computer game is not so easily changed. So a programmers time has to be budgeted based on what is easiest and more reasonable that improves the game to function in a real world manner as much as is possible with a IGOUGO very very old game. There is more to come, you can be sure of that. [;)]

It really is a great game. I played starting with TOAW I, then II, then COW. I rarely played III, but only because I was playing other great games. But I supported the effort of TOAW IV by buying it as soon as it came out, and over the Christmas holiday I've been playing it and remembering why it is such a great game. Continued improvement would be great.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

When you open Game Options you see several check boxes for new game rules. One more check box for New Rivers wouldn't hurt. I don't know how many player made scenarios there are, maybe over a thousand, but that didn't stop all of these new items from being made whether or not it broke some of those scenarios. And many people took the time to fix some of those that did break. But a switch like what we have for all of the other new ways the game does things would take care of the old scenarios. New River Graphics

For that matter you could even make a switch for when movement points are spent for rivers. Either upon entering or upon leaving. New River Rule

This would add a greater variety and people can play with whatever version they want. You actually could make most of the people happy most of the time. [;)]
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: larrybush

99% of all board games use hex side rivers

That's it in a nutshell: Cardboard counters and hex grids. That's what passes for "evidence" in this endless screed. Never reality - reality is far, far messier.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Curtis Lemay »

Here's item 2.2 from the old "Comprehensive Wishlist" document:

2.2 Improve river hexes by inferring deployment state in them from the context of when & how the hex was captured:
2.2.1 Defensive: Began last defender player-turn in control of defender. Attacks out of or into suffer the river penalty.
2.2.1.1 Such attacks must have a minimum amount of major ferry included if it is a Super River hex.
2.2.2 Offensive: Captured in last defender’s player turn. Attacks out of do not suffer penalty. Attacks into gain offensive bonus equal to the river penalty being applied to the defender.
2.2.3 Offensive status takes effect the instant the hex is captured. It is reset to Defensive status at the start of the second enemy player turn after the friendly player captured the hex (assuming it remains in friendly control all that time).
2.2.4 Info panel displays what the status of any selected river hex is (possibly subject to fog-of-war).
2.2.5 Rationale: The two states infer which side of the river the defender is located on relative to the enemy. If the hex has just been gained (Offensive State), the defender is assumed to be on the far (enemy) side of the river, and retains his offensive posture. He can then push on without need to further suffer any penalty associated with crossing the river. And, he remains vulnerable to a counterattack with the river at his back. However, if no such push takes place after the next defender player turn (Defensive State), the defender is assumed to have relocated on the near (friendly) side of the river and taken a defensive posture. He is no longer vulnerable to a counterattack, but if he later wishes to push on, it will require another river-crossing assault.
2.2.6 Alternate: Offensive state remains in effect until converted to Defensive by owner’s choice via popup.

Something similar to that may be implemented at some point.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by warspite1 »

I don't understand what the fuss is about. I've been fighting in the desert for months now and have no problem with rivers......
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I don't understand what the fuss is about. I've been fighting in the desert for months now and have no problem with rivers......

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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Franciscus »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I don't understand what the fuss is about. I've been fighting in the desert for months now and have no problem with rivers......

[:D][:D][:D]
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That's it in a nutshell: Cardboard counters and hex grids. That's what passes for "evidence" in this endless screed.

He does have a point. Even in the world of digital war games hex side rivers are in the majority. While there are some that use mid hex rivers the reason to keep them to the hex side is simple. It's easy to know what side of the river you are on. And that is an important piece of information.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Never reality - reality is far, far messier.

Exactly. In TOAW rivers in hexes pose a multitude of problems that makes it very messy. I can't move down one side of the river or the other without being 1 hex times the scale away from the river. So if I'm playing a 50 km map I have to be 50 km off of the river to move down it. Makes no sense. Even on a smaller scale it's not all that logical. You can throw out all sorts of winding river excuses but in real life it doesn't hold up.

Anyway, the inconsistencies of mid hex rivers need to be cleared up. Can't deny that they are there.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

He does have a point.

Rubbish. Reality is what matters. And that "cardboard counter" mindset is what's behind most of this.
Exactly. In TOAW rivers in hexes pose a multitude of problems that makes it very messy. I can't move down one side of the river or the other without being 1 hex times the scale away from the river. So if I'm playing a 50 km map I have to be 50 km off of the river to move down it. Makes no sense. Even on a smaller scale it's not all that logical. You can throw out all sorts of winding river excuses but in real life it doesn't hold up.

"Makes no sense" if you think that rivers run in straight lines down the center of hexgrids. I suppose if your "reality" is coming from a board game, they do.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Lobster

He does have a point.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Rubbish. Reality is what matters. And that "cardboard counter" mindset is what's behind most of this.

That is your opinion and only an opinion based on no facts. And if middle of the hex rivers ever make sense then none of the above even matters.
Exactly. In TOAW rivers in hexes pose a multitude of problems that makes it very messy. I can't move down one side of the river or the other without being 1 hex times the scale away from the river. So if I'm playing a 50 km map I have to be 50 km off of the river to move down it. Makes no sense. Even on a smaller scale it's not all that logical. You can throw out all sorts of winding river excuses but in real life it doesn't hold up.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
"Makes no sense" if you think that rivers run in straight lines down the center of hexgrids. I suppose if your "reality" is coming from a board game, they do.


Simulate: to look, feel, or behave like (something).

That is what this game does. It simulates naval warfare which you had no problem improving so it made sense. It also simulates things like rivers. In TOAW rivers run through hexes in straight lines or curvy lines with no left or right bank. Rivers actually do have a left bank and a right bank. But in TOAW this is not simulated. It's ignored. In fact, if a river occupies a hex in TOAW, it runs in all directions simultaneously. It covers every direction of the compass. I know this because if I move from one river hex, across a river hex side to the next river hex I have to pay to cross a river even if it graphically appears that the river runs in only one direction. At least in hex side rivers you actually do have a left bank and a right bank. In inter hex rivers you have to develop convoluted programming to properly simulate a river and the positions of things within the hex that the river occupies. Now if that is easier than introducing hex side rivers fine. But as things stand how do you or anyone else conclusively know what side of a river a unit occupies or even if the unit is on both sides of the river or all sides of an infinitely sided river? That is the "reality" of rivers in TOAW.

There's more like crossing a river and then paying a penalty to attack a unit across the river that you just crossed but what's the point? Trying to introduce a little more logic into the game mechanics seems to make the least sense of all.
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RE: In Hex Rivers Revisited...Yet Again.

Post by fdski10 »

i'm relatively new to TOAW and found this dicussion right after playing Market Garden scenario. Playing as Allies i rolled germans without much trouble. Didn't even bother checking where the rivers are.
Playing as germans, i tried to create chokepoints on heavely defended destroyed bridges, regardless Allied units crossed rivers as they wished without any problems.

What am I missing ?
Should have I been defending one hex back ? Or is it simply that this modeling as described here is simply inadequate to simulate such peculiar scenario as Market Garden ?
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