Tutorial Mission as Russians: Whats to do with T-80s?

[roderh]

Hi,

after doing the Tutorial as the British I decided to give it a try as the Russians. All I managed to achieve so far are marginal loses. My questions:

1) My main Problem: Why are the T-80s this weak against the Challengers 1? It seems to me, that the main advantage of the Challengers are their Thermal Sights, which should not be relevant in broad daylight, right? But my T-80s get easily killed by the Challengers. Could someone explain to my, why the Challengers 1 are this superior?

2) Can I give my Hinds orders to specifically targed the Challengers?

Thank you very much in advance!

[CapnDarwin]

Some quick answers:

1). Chally 1's have better fire control, stability, and thermals. Thermals work great at night, good during the day and only have issues during dusk and down when you get into periods of thermal inversion. The T-80s really need to get inside of 2000 meters. Best to use terrain masking to close on known positions. If you know where the tanks are from Recon, you can hit them with arty to reduce their readiness and therefore their overall shooting effectiveness.

2). There are no direct targeting commands. The will shoot on targets as they see them or by threat. IF you want to improve the odds of them shooting the tanks, you can plot the movement to bring the tanks into view first. Just avoid the Brit AD units.

Also remember the tutorial is biased in favor of the Brits both in the non-realistic OOBs but the restrictive terrain on the map. [8D]

[roderh]

Great! Thank you very much!

[HeinzBaby]

Something's stuffed with the my text editor, I can't carriage return or space my post ..bear with me... -
This is my favorite senario to checkout updates, I've played both sides numerously...so
- SPOILER - As Cap'n Darwin said you must (ideally) get in close with Soviet Armour,
With this Senario as Glorious Red Army follow the 'indirect route' with the Tank Bn
as Point using Assault movement right into the Eastern side of Nordheim, end with Hold Command (on Tactical defensive).
Your Mot Rifles should be right behind them, same Commands.
SP Art Bty should be targeting the road NES11 into town (3x fires on the one hex),
Smoke on NATO does bugger all so I almost always use HE / Minlets when playing Soviet,
just keep blasting away. Sit back and watch the Brits do the Charge of the Light Brigade' into Nordheim.
This Type of senario is typicaly 'A Meeting Engagement' combat will usually occur off the March,
so whoever 'gits thar furstest'-into Nordheim will win.
With the attached screeny, Observe the carnage in-bound road and where the BR2 Recce is,
park your Tunguska there too. it will sweep the skies clear if not pinpointed by Brit Arty.
You can see the way points of a Mot Rifle Co leading into Nordheim they used the same route as the T-80's.

[roderh]

Hi HeinzBaby,

at last, I've done this quite your way, or: even simpler: 1) Rushing to Nordheim and hold - plus 2) sending a T80 unit north for eliminating the RHQ.

BTW: same tactics worked for "A Time To Dance": sent two Bradleys north to the edge of the map, one for the HQ and one for the Arti, circumvent the enemy and kill HQ and Arti. I would think, this - gamey - solution (ie: use edges of the map and kill HQ and Arti) will work for every scenario (which would be a bit disappointing).

For me, the main problem is, that I cant figure out from the description in the "Subunit Inspector", that I have to be in short range with my T80s. How could I know this? Comparing Challenger 1 with T-80B1 I would see this: 1) Thermal Sights on Challenger 1 and better armor (Advanced Composite Armor Level 4), 2) (slightly) better (?) cannon on T-80B1 (125 mm) and faster (96 kmh). For me at least, I just cannot figure out from the description given in the "Subunit Inspector", that this T-80B1 is that much worse than a Challenger 1. Probably the Challenger 1 cannon (L11A5) is much better than 2A46 (better "fire control", I would think, according to CapnDarwin)

[roderh]

Second picture:



Searing Wikipedia does not enlightend me(too complicated):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ordnance_L11A5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2A46_125_mm_gun

BTW: comparing Victory Points (62 to 131) seems a good idea (though gamey) for comparing unit-values.

[HeinzBaby]

Hi roderh,
Thermals will give you improved sighting - better for Lasing the target therefore response time.

Red Storm is Grand Tactical, the 'On Target Simulations' crew have hit the Sweet spot with their Tactical - Operational balance.
The Units (Platoons /Co's Vehicle & Leg symbols), Topographic Maps and devilish Senarios I think, are supurb.
Not every nut & bolt is considered some abstractions had to be taken. The Armour matrix at this level is well thoughtout and the Chally is Great. (I love the Brits, my favorite Unit).
NATO does have an advantage but only slight and there is never enough if it. At close range the MBT's of each nation gives as good as it gets,
the old maxim, 'Its not what you have, it's how you use it' comes to play.
NATO as well as Soviets will have their collective arses handed to them if handled recklessly. Think 'Blackswan events'.
Attached is the Tutorial Brit setup, the first Fire mission for the Off Map Arty is Mine laying,
with the Mortars keeping the Chally's covered in perpetual Smoke.

If you are looking for something seriously more tactical, try 'Steelbeasts' you will be seated in individual Tanks,
though I don't think? you will be handling anything more than a Co

[rsallen64]

It can be hard to see advantages in one tank over another simply by looking at stats. As a former US Army tanker, I can tell you this: thermal sighting has significant advantages even in daytime. I used to use the thermal sights all the time, broad daylight or night. That's because thermals pick up heat, and a tank generates a lot of heat, not just from the engine, but also from the tracks on the move (metal causes lots of friction). People also tend to be hotter (96.8 degrees) than most environments, so unless it's a hot summer day, they stand out like sore thumbs too, UNLESS the vehicles and people are screened by something that blocks your view, like hills, buildings, or vegetation. Even in vegetation, it is easy to see a glimpse of a "hot" item peeking through unless the vehicle or person is completely covered, in which case they probably can't see you either. Smoke does not, for the most part, block thermal sights.

So the Challys on a hill overlooking a valley, etc. can see and target the T-80s from a long way off, and because they are stable, motionless platforms, have a MUCH better chance of hitting their target than a T-80 on the move. As we were always taught, on the modern battlefield, what you can see, you can hit, and what you can hit, you can usually kill. That's the advantage most NATO armor has over Pact armor. When you review the stats, keep that in mind, and use it to your advantage, or find a way to work around it if you're playing as the Soviets. It doesn't matter if you have more of something if you can't see what is shooting at you, and I can tell you that even with modern weapons systems and stabilization, it is VERY hard to see vehicles and men that are shooting at you from inside a moving tank when you are looking through your sights and the tank is bouncing around over uneven terrain at even relatively low speeds. Confusion and chaos rules on the modern battlefield.

[KungPao]

ORIGINAL: roderh


For me, the main problem is, that I cant figure out from the description in the "Subunit Inspector",

Hi roderh, subunit inspector does not show how accurate the gun is. But I think you can check the combat log, it can be quite helpful if you want to check the difference

1121 hrs - 1/4/125th Gd Tank Rgt : fires 125mm 2A46 basic hit chance of (16%) against a Chieftain Mk 11 at a range of 2500m / 2438m
1121 hrs - 1/4/125th Gd Tank Rgt (10 x T-64B1V) in 1817 is engaging a tank unit (2 Tank) in hex 1613 at range 2,306m.

vs

0610 hrs - 3/1/Blues and Royals : fires 120mm L11A5 basic hit chance of (29%) against a T-80BV [m] at a range of 2500m / 2313m
0610 hrs - 3/1/Blues and Royals (3 x Challenger 1) in 1310 is engaging a tank unit (4 x T-80BV [m]) in hex 1812 at range 2,271m.

but when the range get closer, (<2000m) , the Soviet's tank gun become much more accurate.

1020 hrs - 1/4/125th Gd Tank Rgt : fires 125mm 2A46 basic hit chance of (30%) against a Chieftain Mk 11 at a range of 1500m / 1830m
1020 hrs - 1/4/125th Gd Tank Rgt (10 x T-64B1V) in 1817 is engaging a recce unit (3 x Ferret AOP and 3 x Chieftain Mk 11) in hex 1814 at range 1,696m.

In this game some of the Soviet tanks that can fire AT-11 have advantage at the range > 5000m. In the range between 2000m and 4000m, NATO tank dominate the battlefield. When the range get closer into less than 2000m, the tank battle is like a knife fight in a phone booth. The one with more guns will win the fight.

[roderh]

ah, ok. I think, I begin to understand. Obviously, I need some more basic understanding about weapon-systems.
Thanks all!

[MaxDamage]

In game you can play aganist nato tanks in one of two ways.

You either stay closer then 2000m or farther then 3500m.

If you are close, then your tanks become less disadavantaged and perhaps in some cases they have an advantage (t80u, t72bm).
If you are far away, your tanks are quite safe from the enemy fire but they can sometimes still dish out very effective damage using their bore launched missiles (make sure that you have them though).

Between 2000 and 3500 your tanks still dont produce gun firepower but nato gun firepower increases to the point that it totally overcomes your ATGM firepower.

Farther then 3500 NATO firepower is reduced to the level where it becomes worse when compared to bore launched ATGM and you can trade acceptably.

[HeinzBaby]

I beg to differ...

When I'm playing any NATO force, when Soviet Tanks get within 1000-1500m's I'm trading tank for tank losses, something I cannot afford to do.
The trump card up NATO's sleeve is Thermal Imaging, with smoke cover. Time and again I have smashed Soviet Battalion-Regimental attacks with this formula.
As NATO you must! not let Ivan get close.

I do beleive the Red Army today have Thermals in their MBT's, but back in the Cold war days of 70's-80's which this Sim represents they did not.
otherwise the Red Army would be in Antwerp or Paris in a fortnight...

[ctcharger]

Was it Ralph Peter’s book where the Soviet guy wanted his ranging machine gun back instead of the lasers?

What a great discussion to follow. I have the boardgame MBT by GMT and it agrees with what is being discussed here.

Challenger’s are pretty much immune to frontal fire from all Soviet tanks other than track hits I guess.
Thermal sights are a nightmare day or night. Smoke messes up everything for the Soviets.
Note to self: Use terrain as much as possible to avoid getting smoked from long range. (!)
Artillery dropped on these guys can only help. Doing it ahead of time at critical locations I think is smart, if there is a good spot to smoke your tanks at long range, hit it now, not later.

The effect of non-penetrating hits on heavily armored units is a very interesting subject.
Units get suppressed and lose readiness which reduces their effectiveness both in the real world and in the game. If they aren’t buttoned up, even worse can happen.
If a Soviet unit does get caught out in the open, the T-72s and BMPs can strip antennae, periscopes, vision blocks, smoke dischargers, reactive armor, optics, thermal sights off a tank rather quickly if they have the numbers can survive long enough. Looking at the pictures, the thermal sights are fairly good size. Even the gun itself is at risk to an odd hit or too. A general reduction in morale and readiness which the game models works well here IMHO in representing this damage.

Speaking of thermal sights…
If a thermal sight takes a direct hit from a 125mm cannon even at decent range, what happens to it? Will it be smashed? Is it easy to fix? Are there spares around? I guess I can check the field manuals although they may be rather silent on the subject.

[CapnDarwin]

I would think the sight dog house and accompanying optics hardware is destroyed. Assuming the top turret armor is undamaged, the tank would need depot level repairs to replace the assembly. Not sure how easy or fast that is. Would depend on the design of the system and level of modular interaction.

[rsallen64]

You said "Looking at the pictures, the thermal sights are fairly good size." Are you sure you're not confusing thermal "sights" with infrared searchlights? Here's a picture of an M60A3.

You can't really "see" the thermal sight. It's integrated into the optics. What you see under the TC in the upper left is a vision block, which is essentially a periscope. Many of the earlier tanks, especially Soviet ones, had either infrared spotlights or searchlights, like on earlier M60 models.

[ctcharger]

You got me, I was looking at what this diagram calls the "Optical Periscope". So is that where the optics are?

On the M60, where are the optics exactly? That hole above the driver's head? Or is that the coax MG?

Great shot of the M60A3...
I worked with a guy who was in the National Guard and he said he caught the driver once while turning the turret and almost hurt him before his gunner stopped him in time.
Looking at the picture, I could see how it happened.

The next story was new guys trying to use their compass while in the tank.

[rsallen64]

The optical periscope in the M60 is in almost the same place as in the M1 series. In the picture it's partly obscured by the canvas object strapped on top of the gun mount, and it's located right below the commander's cupola, where the M2 .50 cal is located. You can see a part of it sticking out. If that was hit, it would effectively render the thermals "blind", because there would be no way to "see" with them, but the actual thermal gear is located inside the turret, and wouldn't necessarily be touched. A replacement of the optical periscope would bring them "online" again, without the need to replace the entire thermal system.

Related to your note, when I was a driver, it was customary for the tank commander to call out "traversing" when he moved the turret from side to side, so the driver was aware the gun tube was moving back and forth, because one usually drove with the head out of the hatch. A new lieutenant assigned to our tank did not call out one time, and began to move the gun, which caught me on the left side of the head, and bent my head and neck over to the right, fast and hard. I thought my head was going to pop off. That was over 30 years ago. I still have neck problems to this day!

[CapnDarwin]

RSallen65, ouch, that had to sting a bit. [X(]

[rsallen64]

It did. That's new officers for you, though. [:D]

[ctcharger]

That is almost exactly the same story he related to me. Were you in the Ohio National Guard? [:D]

Ok thanks. Changing out a periscope in the field sounds a lot easier than fixing a thermal sight. At least in the Avalon Hill’s Patton’s Best it can be done. Until I played that game, I thought only submarines had periscopes.

Doing it under fire, not so easy...