tyronec (Axis) vs Grognard1812. Grognard welcome.

[Grognard1812]

Situation at the end of GT 19.

The 45th German Infantry Division is surrounded by 18 Soviet units.

Even though the weather forecast for the next turn is mud, due to the random weather option, if a snow or blizzard
turn occurs instead (each has a 5% chance of occurring) it would have a significant impact on the game.

[tyronec]

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

I imagine in most cases of this happening it would be stablised by costing time, energy and a bit of wear and tear but ultimately it is really going to hamper the blizzard prep

Could easily be the difference between being in control and losing control over winter

Looking forward to seeing how they both react to this!

Which sides blizzard prep do you think is being hampered ?


Who are you asking? The person that wrote what you quoted or me?

Was in response to SP but anyone is welcome to comment.

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I imagine in most cases of this happening it would be stablised by costing time, energy and a bit of wear and tear but ultimately it is really going to hamper the blizzard prep

Could easily be the difference between being in control and losing control over winter

Looking forward to seeing how they both react to this!

I believe you are spot on on your assessment. Defiantly will have to get out the munchies and drinks for this one.

I have my popcorn at the ready!

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

I imagine in most cases of this happening it would be stablised by costing time, energy and a bit of wear and tear but ultimately it is really going to hamper the blizzard prep

Could easily be the difference between being in control and losing control over winter

Looking forward to seeing how they both react to this!

Which sides blizzard prep do you think is being hampered ?

Well I guess in theory both sides winter prep will be hampered but Axis is almost always gonna draw the short straw

I have been holding my breath since I saw that 1.66-1 attack (Although his roll seemed great) you best get them men saved pronto!! [X(]

[tyronec]

Well I guess in theory both sides winter prep will be hampered but Axis is almost always gonna draw the short straw

Personally am not sure.
Soviets have some of their best mobile units in an exposed position, they could get trapped or take heavy losses during the pending snow turns and they are not building up strength for the blizzard attack.
On the other hand I might lose some units, think it would take an extreme combat result but is certainly possible. Am also not sure of the impact if that pocket were cut off. Interesting.

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Well I guess in theory both sides winter prep will be hampered but Axis is almost always gonna draw the short straw

Personally am not sure.
Soviets have some of their best mobile units in an exposed position, they could get trapped or take heavy losses during the pending snow turns and they are not building up strength for the blizzard attack.
On the other hand I might lose some units, think it would take an extreme combat result but is certainly possible. Am also not sure of the impact if that pocket were cut off. Interesting.

Yeah that's a very good point I did not think about cutting out the mobile units at all Tyronec

Aslong as you plan avidly for all types of weather each turn I do see how you could turn this into a safety net for your divisions & hexes come winter now

Risky in this siuation as anything could happen at the moment but I guess that is what makes for such an interesting read!

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Well I guess in theory both sides winter prep will be hampered but Axis is almost always gonna draw the short straw

Personally am not sure.
Soviets have some of their best mobile units in an exposed position, they could get trapped or take heavy losses during the pending snow turns and they are not building up strength for the blizzard attack.
On the other hand I might lose some units, think it would take an extreme combat result but is certainly possible. Am also not sure of the impact if that pocket were cut off. Interesting.

Actually I might propose that the isolated units are doing you a favor

There are three problems I see in my newbie mind that I might suggest will have a long lasting effect should this game go on to 1944 ..

1. The deep drive has put your forces at high Supply MP's away from the railhead. An interesting unintended consequence of the supply algorithm is that the lorries (as Telemecus would say) will not even attempt to supply the isolated units .. in this case this is good in an odd way. The units that are 90MP's from the railhead are going to have trucks attempt to supply in the Mud phase this is not so good.. a look at the upper right hand corner might show a narrowing between the numbers left of the () and the numbers in the () .. when the numbers left are < () your whole Army will begin to suffer the effects insidiously at first.
2. There are a few 90+ morale German units. If they get isolated their morale drops. This will take some doing to recover. The problem is victories are a matter of morale, firepower, and adjusted CV .. and lower morale makes those victories harder to get morale up. It's the elite units that carve holes in tough positions...
3. If he does pocket units .. your snow turns will be dedicated to breaking these pockets rather than preparing for what is documented in this AAR as a normal Blizzard. Should your better units be "caught out" [Think Everest 1996] they will suffer morale and attrition losses that will not totally recover.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Well I guess in theory both sides winter prep will be hampered but Axis is almost always gonna draw the short straw

Personally am not sure.
Soviets have some of their best mobile units in an exposed position, they could get trapped or take heavy losses during the pending snow turns and they are not building up strength for the blizzard attack.
On the other hand I might lose some units, think it would take an extreme combat result but is certainly possible. Am also not sure of the impact if that pocket were cut off. Interesting.

Actually I might propose that the isolated units are doing you a favor

There are three problems I see in my newbie mind that I might suggest will have a long lasting effect should this game go on to 1944 ..

1. The deep drive has put your forces at high Supply MP's away from the railhead. An interesting unintended consequence of the supply algorithm is that the lorries (as Telemecus would say) will not even attempt to supply the isolated units .. in this case this is good in an odd way. The units that are 90MP's from the railhead are going to have trucks attempt to supply in the Mud phase this is not so good.. a look at the upper right hand corner might show a narrowing between the numbers left of the () and the numbers in the () .. when the numbers left are < () your whole Army will begin to suffer the effects insidiously at first.
2. There are a few 90+ morale German units. If they get isolated their morale drops. This will take some doing to recover. The problem is victories are a matter of morale, firepower, and adjusted CV .. and lower morale makes those victories harder to get morale up. It's the elite units that carve holes in tough positions...
3. If he does pocket units .. your snow turns will be dedicated to breaking these pockets rather than preparing for what is documented in this AAR as a normal Blizzard. Should your better units be "caught out" [Think Everest 1996] they will suffer morale and attrition losses that will not totally recover.

Yup yup, I'm waiting for the next installment O.O

[Grognard1812]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Well I guess in theory both sides winter prep will be hampered but Axis is almost always gonna draw the short straw

Personally am not sure.
Soviets have some of their best mobile units in an exposed position, they could get trapped or take heavy losses during the pending snow turns and they are not building up strength for the blizzard attack.
On the other hand I might lose some units, think it would take an extreme combat result but is certainly possible. Am also not sure of the impact if that pocket were cut off. Interesting.

Actually I might propose that the isolated units are doing you a favor

There are three problems I see in my newbie mind that I might suggest will have a long lasting effect should this game go on to 1944 ..

1. The deep drive has put your forces at high Supply MP's away from the railhead. An interesting unintended consequence of the supply algorithm is that the lorries (as Telemecus would say) will not even attempt to supply the isolated units .. in this case this is good in an odd way. The units that are 90MP's from the railhead are going to have trucks attempt to supply in the Mud phase this is not so good.. a look at the upper right hand corner might show a narrowing between the numbers left of the () and the numbers in the () .. when the numbers left are < () your whole Army will begin to suffer the effects insidiously at first.
2. There are a few 90+ morale German units. If they get isolated their morale drops. This will take some doing to recover. The problem is victories are a matter of morale, firepower, and adjusted CV .. and lower morale makes those victories harder to get morale up. It's the elite units that carve holes in tough positions...
3. If he does pocket units .. your snow turns will be dedicated to breaking these pockets rather than preparing for what is documented in this AAR as a normal Blizzard. Should your better units be "caught out" [Think Everest 1996] they will suffer morale and attrition losses that will not totally recover.

Adding to the above mentioned points, from the game manual there are many negative effects on units when
they are isolated:

-Admin and initiative checks are twice as hard to make for isolated units
-As mentioned isolated units can lose one or more morale points per turn depending on the existing supply
shortages
-isolated unit only fire a 1/4 of the ammunition that they would normally use
-they do not receive any replacements or return damaged ground elements to the force pool - which means their
TOE levels will decrease each turn
-isolated units suffer a supply related CV penalty which can significantly effect their modified combat value
-if isolated units fail certain checks based on their morale they retreat more easily
-also I don't think isolated units are able to recover fatigue

What this means I think is that when units are isolated for more than a few turns they begin to wither away and
become very susceptible to negative combat results.

[Grognard1812]

Soviet Game Turn 20

In the Voronezh area.

STAVKA bestowed the title of Hero of Rostov to General Zhukov, and then ordered him to take command of the 51st
Army near Tombov. With the assistance of 3 newly arrived 60 morale infantry divisions from Siberia, General
Zhukov led an attack on the surrounded 45th German Infantry Division which was successful.

[Grognard1812]

An attack was also successful against the 3rd Infantry Regiment of the 258 Infantry Division.

They will be joining the 45 Infantry Division on a long train ride to Siberia.

[Grognard1812]

The narrow supply corridor leading to the encircled Axis troops near Tombov was successfully cut off.

About nine German division are in the pocket.

[Grognard1812]

Situation in the Voronezh area at the end of GT 20.

The weather forecast for next week is mud.

As the snow turns start in 2 turns, the Soviet army needs to start preparing for an expected Axis attempt to
relieve the encircled German units near Tombov.

[Grognard1812]

GT 20 loses.

[Grognard1812]

GT 20 Order of Battle

As long as I can prevent Tyronec from reaching 260 VC and also the Soviet army from losing too many units
in the 3 snow turns before December, the Red Army should be able to launch an effective winter counter-offensive
during the blizzard turns.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Do we have pictures of what is happening to the North and South of this area that can be posted by chance? .

[Crackaces]

Something that would be helpful is to turn off the fortified indices .. so I can see the unit sizes .. also could you hover over those panzer units? If 3 divisions .. the destruction is going to leave a mark ... [:D]

If you have resources ... and when you can [mud highly unlikely] .. bomb those isolated units .. flak SU's (if present) uses ammo in this game 20mm ammo is accounted for no differently that 150mm art ammo .. simply is ammo abstractly present what level and used from there to adjust ROF ..So if flak fires .. tanks might have no ammo in this game

[John B.]

Wow. Nice counterattack. Of course, Goring guarantees that the Luftwaffe will resupply the trapped units but then he always says that.

[Grognard1812]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Do we have pictures of what is happening to the North and South of this area that can be posted by chance? .

I don't have any recent pictures of the area North and South of Voronezh. I am presently completing GT 21 and
will save pictures of those areas and post them once I receive GT 22 from Tyronec. Both Tyronec and I are just
one turn ahead of the AAR.

[Grognard1812]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Something that would be helpful is to turn off the fortified indices .. so I can see the unit sizes .. also could you hover over those panzer units? If 3 divisions .. the destruction is going to leave a mark ... [:D]

If you have resources ... and when you can [mud highly unlikely] .. bomb those isolated units .. flak SU's (if present) uses ammo in this game 20mm ammo is accounted for no differently that 150mm art ammo .. simply is ammo abstractly present what level and used from there to adjust ROF ..So if flak fires .. tanks might have no ammo in this game

For the Soviet AAR of GT 21 I will turn off the fortified indices when providing a picture of the Axis units in
the Vornoezh area. At the end of GT 20, in the Axis pocket there are 9 German Infantry Divisions (one only has
2 regiments) and 2 Panzer divisions (the 3rd and 4th) - these two panzer divisions started the game as 90 morale
units and the 1st Cavalry division. As the 1st Cavalry division is scheduled to withdrawal at the beginning
of the Axis turn 21 I don't know what impact being isolated (and in a pocket) has on its withdrawal ability or if
there are any penalties.

I have been conducting 2 unit bombing missions each turn on all isolated hexes as you suggest.