Supply routes and re-supplying units

[xavutrecht]

Hi,

I am currently playing Dragoon 44 (US vs GE AI) and struggling a bit with the supply rules.
I put some air units on "Rest" to recover some readiness, worked great.
Naval units could resupply in harbors, worked also great and quick.
Ground units, I have to slow/stop the main force, units are running low on fuel.
Supply routes are clear, I think, but re-supply is slow.

I tried to maintain a "solid" line of supply between the fighting units and the depots but it looked like I failed.

Any suggestions, comments?

Frustrating to have to stop and watch the enemy units escaping...

[Olorin]

A few questions, because I'm unfamiliar with the scenario:
a. where is the source of supply
b. what is your Force Supply?
c. what is your Supply Radius?

p.s. Naval units don't have to return to port to resupply, they can do it at sea.

[Oberst_Klink]

Kai... what supply rules are switched on?

High Supply ON/OFF?
New Supply Rules ON/OFF?

Klink, Oberst

[xavutrecht]

Supply sources are Cavalaire, St Trpez, Ste Maxime, Agay, St Raphael.
Supply capability is 39.
Supply radius, no idea (can't find the info).

High supply is Off.
New supply rules is On.

[IvanJoukov]

You sip a lot of fuel in this scenario after the landing of all the main motorized units, but I had enough anyway to follow and cut the road of the last german divisions in the northern Rhone valley. I think that checkered HQ unit also has a supply bonus, see unit detail to know the range, but it has to be verified I don't remember clearly.

On your screen you seem pretty well supplied but you still have a lot of units still on the coast at the time where you should almost be on the northern objectives with your spearheads.

[xavutrecht]

Checkered units, ie HQ, didn't give me any more info about supply.

This is turn 8.

The US divisions are moving north as quickly as they can. I would be interested to know the fastest way north.

The French units took Toulon and Marseille and will now move north.

[IvanJoukov]

You seem to be fine so, you'll certainly have to deal with the SS Panzer Div around Avignon then try to cut the road to escaping units north of there in the valley. I also sent an US Motorized through Alps to Grenoble (via Gap) to securize it. I managed both (cut off the last german units north of Avignon and take Grenoble) around turn 14.

Your supply seems nice and sufficient for that, the main lines are secured.


EDIT : Are you worrying because you don't see the supply on every hexes between your formations? That's an effect of the "no borders" advanced rule :

3.3 - No Borders: You can only see borders and
supply rates for hexes that your forces are
adjacent to, or have occupied this Turn. This
is an additional means of increasing Fog of
War.

[xavutrecht]

Thanks.[:)][:)]

[sPzAbt653]

High supply is Off.
New supply rules is On.

I will add something about these two. High Supply isn't really of concern as it was designed to help really old scenarios from the early days. New Supply, however, is different in that it 'improves' the way that supply is handled. This creates confusion because scenarios designed prior to v3.4.0.202 were not designed with these new supply calculations in mind, and therefore may throw things off. Some will say that this is a minor effect and of little concern, I would say that I would rather play an older design without the New Supply Rules as this will ensure that the original design and original supply calculations are intact. Players can always play with them On then Off to see if they can tell a difference, and the change can be made while playing [but will not take effect until the next turn]. However, I suggest not automatically assuming that New Supply is better. Some guidelines I suggest:
Pre-v3.4.0.202: Don't use New Supply or perhaps test both New and Original to see if you can tell a difference.
Post-v3.4.0.202: Check the scenario documentation to see if the designer gives you the information, New Supply Rules = On or Off. This makes matters clear. If there is no mention in a post-v3.4.0.202 scenario, then you have a pickle because you don't know what the original design was.

Sorry if I confused you by clarifying this ! [&:]

[xavutrecht]

Thanks.
I will give it a try with the new supply rules off.

[Der Zeitgeist]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

High supply is Off.
New supply rules is On.

I will add something about these two. High Supply isn't really of concern as it was designed to help really old scenarios from the early days. New Supply, however, is different in that it 'improves' the way that supply is handled. This creates confusion because scenarios designed prior to v3.4.0.202 were not designed with these new supply calculations in mind, and therefore may throw things off. Some will say that this is a minor effect and of little concern, I would say that I would rather play an older design without the New Supply Rules as this will ensure that the original design and original supply calculations are intact. Players can always play with them On then Off to see if they can tell a difference, and the change can be made while playing [but will not take effect until the next turn]. However, I suggest not automatically assuming that New Supply is better. Some guidelines I suggest:
Pre-v3.4.0.202: Don't use New Supply or perhaps test both New and Original to see if you can tell a difference.
Post-v3.4.0.202: Check the scenario documentation to see if the designer gives you the information, New Supply Rules = On or Off. This makes matters clear. If there is no mention in a post-v3.4.0.202 scenario, then you have a pickle because you don't know what the original design was.

Sorry if I confused you by clarifying this ! [&:]

Can't we at some point get a list of the scenarios describing what options they should be played with? Most of the scenarios I tried so far didn't have any kind of information about the TOAW versions they were created with and no information about any special rules to use.

Quite frankly, I don't have the time to try out a scenario first to see if the supply seems too high or too low (As a beginner, I wouldn't be able to tell anyway).

I thought TOAW IV was supposed to include scenarios that were tested with the new game, so we would be able to play them out of the box, without having to hunt for this kind of information. [&:]

[sPzAbt653]

I thought TOAW IV was supposed to include scenarios that were tested with the new game, so we would be able to play them

Nobody said they weren't or that you couldn't. There is nothing in my comments that says that. You can't get a list of options for each scenario as only the original designer knows those things, and some of these scenarios have outlived the designer. TOAW IV has made improvements in this area by adding in a Developer Recommended Options screen, but that has not been available until now. For the early versions of TOAW, nobody paid any attention because options were few. You have to understand this, it's simple, there are now FOUR official versions of TOAW. If a scenario loads in TOAW, it plays. Anything shipped with TOAW IV was tested and cleared. Anything you bring in from other sites or archives, however, may or may not work as the original designer intended. Not only four different versions, but hundreds of designers [all volunteers, by the way] and over 1,000 scenarios, with many patches and changes, since the 1990's. Understand this and you will enjoy TOAW as immensely as many of us have for many years. You don't need to spend time fretting about things that you don't understand or can't grasp, just play it. When someone applies them self like the original poster and asks for some more details, don't read replies and freak out.
TOAW is different from other games, and better by bounds. Maybe it's better if I/we don't try to help ?

[Der Zeitgeist]

Well, I guess it's just hard to wrap your head around that as a beginner.

Maybe you could at least create a list where people can contribute known and confirmed settings for old scenarios that shipped with TOAW IV. Especially concerning the "high supply" setting.

[sPzAbt653]

Nobody ever designed a scenario with High Supply.

Scenario Briefings list designer settings.

There's the list, now go play !!

[Oberst_Klink]

You forgot to attach it, Steve

Anyway, my comments to answer some questions about how one can use even pre-TOAW IV scenarios. 1.) one has to keep in mind the new rules, options; which can be easily tweaked/adjusted, especially supply, overextended supply, AD and MRPB; not a problem at all. 2.) AI vs. AI and bingo; most AI to AI matches should end as a draw (my experience) and the scenario (if it was intended for Human vs. AI) is ready to go.

@Der Zeitgeist: Many of us old salts are more than happy to have a look at older scenarios and offer our advice or assistance to tweak them.

Klink, Oberst

[DanNeely]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
You have to understand this, it's simple, there are now FOUR official versions of TOAW.

Six versions actually; the middle two just didn't get numbered.

TOAW1 - WW2 only
TOAW2 - post WW2
TOAW: Wargame of the Year (TOAW1's WW2 scenarios and DB but using the improved engine from TOAW2
TOAW: A Century of Warfare - Combined the WW2 and Modern scenarios and added support for WW1 and earlier
TOAW3 - not sure why Matrix didn't name this v5.
TOAW4 - actually the 6th version.

[sPzAbt653]

SIX ?? OMG, why didn't somebody tell me ?? If I'd have known that I would have never bought IV, now I am already two versions behind. I've been ripped off !!

Does anybody know if TOAW IV scenarios will work with the two versions that I don't have ? Can somebody make a list of what options I should use with newer scenarios ? Is there a comprehensive list of scenarios that will rub my feet while I play ?