Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

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Aufklaerungs
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Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by Aufklaerungs »

I don't understand why full campaign scenario designers retained true nationalities as populace in Axis occupied locations (Czech, Yugo, Polish, etc) yet in SU occupied (1939-40) Finland, Poland, Romania, Lith, Latvia and Estonia, population nationalities are SU. Only the intellectuals and bourgeois business/land owners from these areas were displaced to the gulag from these locations, without any large resettlement of Soviet citizens into the annexed territories. Additionally, each of these nationalities, plus Ukrainians in particular, had organized armed nationalist resistance movements sponsored by UK, Pre-June 40 France, Turkey, among others, that kept NKVD units involved in low intensity conflicts with "counter-revolutionary" elements on at least the same scale as Nazi rear area operations in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Benelux prior to Barbarossa. Red Army units raised from among these nationalities were the least "politically reliable" combat units during 41-42, and Wehrmacht/SS raised substantial reinforcements from the Balts and Ukrainians in 43. Soviets were regarded as liberators among only a tiny minority in the territories annexed under Molotov-Ribbentrop protocols. [&:] Maybe WitE2 will reflect historic conditions better?
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by Telemecus »

I am not sure they totally disregarded it. Cernauti and Kishiniev are still Rumanian and Vyborg Finnish when it comes to garrisons. Their areas have very reduced, if any, partisan creation. Germans still get the Galician divisions added to their army, the Latvian motorised unit etc. And political reliability is reflected in lower morale of many Soviet units.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by Aufklaerungs »

Good point. There are those three exceptions you mention. Doubt very much that Red Army recruited many Partisans from the local population of Riga, Vilnius and Kaunas; no need since there were so many stragglers and stay-behinds. SU garners all the Polish all the Baltic and Lion's share of Bessarabia-Bukovinan and Karelian manpower. Just seems more than a little wacky that WitE scenario designers incorrectly assume/define vast majority of these guys from places like Lwow or Kovel or Pinsk or Tarnopol as SU nationals - seems more logical and consistent to me that Red Army manpower should come from east of the Sept 1939 borders as it does in the case of the Axis. Don't doubt there must be OB adjustments in the game to account for 6 SS grenadier divisions (2 Latvian, 2 Estonian and 2 Galician and substantial numbers drafted into Heere combat formations, Feldgendarmerie, + Labor units, but also provided much of the replacements for Steiner's III Germanische Korps as well as Army Group Courland (Kurland) without Vlasov, Kaminsky or Cossacks. Perhaps SU player does not derive any benefits from these pools until driving Axis back to Germany/Austria and Hungary? [&:]
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by 56ajax »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I am not sure they totally disregarded it. Cernauti and Kishiniev are still Rumanian and Vyborg Finnish when it comes to garrisons. Their areas have very reduced, if any, partisan creation. Germans still get the Galician divisions added to their army, the Latvian motorised unit etc. And political reliability is reflected in lower morale of many Soviet units.
From memory I think I was advised that initial morale values were random. So it may be reflected but not in the correct unit.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by lastkozak »

This is an interesting topic. I have raised similar issues on other Eastern Front WW2 game forums. There is much I could probably say, but initially it was the dynamics primarily in Ukraine (are there any other Ukrainians/diaspora members here who noticed that WITE keeps referring to Ukraine as a thing? "the Ukraine"; quite insulting).

Different oblasts had different dominating faiths and ethnicities. Large areas within some oblasts had large portions where judaism was practiced, as well as two or more forms of Christianity, depending on which Patriarch, or whether they were Cathoic. Then many areas of Ukraine which were a mix of many years of back and forth occupation, resulting in different ethnic and nationalist groups. Bukovina itself, had 35% jewish population before WW1, and also a large portion of Austrian, Romanian, Roma, Moldavians and Ukrainians; Border towns tended to be quite multinational especially near mountain passes.

Primarily in the past I pointed out that there were essentially 3 types of partisans found in Ukraine.

1) Those that were more inclined to support the Soviets, as they came from a peasant back ground and things were better with the Soviets than they were under Tsarist Russia; they tended to fight against the Nazis and then joined the Soviet army when the front moved.

2) Those that were left over from Ukrainian independence in the 20's, who hated the Soviets, especially after the Holodymyr, however many did not necessarily join and help the Nazis, especially when they realized the Nazis were not any better; areas that had large Jewish populations saw quite quickly a people that they had accepted in their oblasts, though not Christians, being removed and executed, resulting in an early anti-nazi attitude (Ukrainians and Romanians in Bukovina, quickly formed partisan movements, and actually helped hide jews when they could; I actually spoke to a partisan in my family's village about such practices). I suspect that the Odessa Oblast also had many Christians Shocked at what they saw, although I do not know what Partisan activity was like there.

This second group broke into two types of partisans, those that helped the Nazis and were anti-soviet, and another group that was pro-Ukrainian Nationalist, and fought against both the Nazis and later the Soviets (essentially their philosophy was, "both you SOB's get out of Ukraine).

I am unsure how such could be introduced into this game, and do not know how big a problem anti-soviet partisans were to the Soviets, but am aware that many partisans joined the Soviet army or were probably used for labour, many continued to fight and harass the Soviets; the Carpathians are easy to hide in. I do know it took a couple years to occupy and passify all of Ukraine at the end of the war. For that matter they never really eliminated the Ukrainian identity from the mind of its inhabitants; thus they failed in their attempt to assimilate all Slavic people into a Russian Chauvinist model.

Perhaps an option to allow some partisans in Ukraine to harass the supply of soviets, and see how much this effects the game. I should think that a minimum of 1 or 2 brigades were required to police the areas where anti-soviet partisans were present. Or that it should cost more for soviets to trace supply through such areas. It was probably more of a pain in the backside for the Soviets, than a serious problem influencing the Front.

I would agree with the sentiment I infer here, that there still is a lot of ignorance among westerners of the many ethnic and nationalist groups in Eastern Europe and their affect on both sides' occupation of their homelands!

My 2 cents!

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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by Dreamslayer »

Interesting point of view.

Especially about "Ukrainian independence in the 20's","the Holodymyr","and actually helped hide jews when they could".
You are talking about people who implicated in acts like the Volhynian Massacre?
About "heroes" of modern Ukraine like Roman Shukhevych.
I'm sure that most of people from Poland will agree with you.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by lastkozak »

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Interesting point of view.

Especially about "Ukrainian independence in the 20's","the Holodymyr","and actually helped hide jews when they could".
You are talking about people who implicated in acts like the Volhynian Massacre?
About "heroes" of modern Ukraine like Roman Shukhevych.
I'm sure that most of people from Poland will agree with you.


Well, if you wish to paint a people all with the same brush, guess what? Your logic will succumb to confirmation bias.

The three items you quote from my original post, are all true! Ukraine did have independence, the Holodymyr is true, and there was not as much antisemitism as is often portrayed. Examples of Ukrainian villagers attempting to help hide jewish people exist. Further, presently modern day Ukraine has a program where they pay military engineers to work with a Catholic Priest and the Jewish community, to find the remains of jewish Ukrainian villagers who were shot in the forests; following up on every story that any survivor can remember, including any stories of executions by Ukrainian Nationalists, of Jewish Ukrainians.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by Aufklaerungs »

Bravo! We certainly know Vatutin was assassinated by Ukrainian nationalists in 1944, a serious blow to the Red Army to be sure.

Perhaps you have some idea of the numbers of Ukrainian Nationalist "bandits" held by the NKVD in Lviv, Kiev and other Ukrainian urban centers. Many were summarily executed by the NKVD rather than risk their falling into German hands.

I think that dissidents in Eastern Poland, including distrustful communists, banded together to harass the Red Army occupiers (39-41) and the liberators (44-50). I'm certain that the Lithuanian and Latvian and Estonian armed resistance groups followed a similar three-way division to the one you describe took place in Ukraine: - antisemites-fascists, nationalists opposing all imperialist occupiers, and willing or unwilling Soviet sympathizers.

Himmler raised two SS Galician, two SS Latvian and two SS Estonian divisions aside from many local antipartisan security detachments that supplemented the SS Einsatzgruppen and rear area security units.

I think some scenario designers might want to take these factors into account when choosing the nationality of the populace-work force in many locations on the map rather than sticking tothe Soviet default.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by lastkozak »

ORIGINAL: SPNILHOB

Bravo! We certainly know Vatutin was assassinated by Ukrainian nationalists in 1944, a serious blow to the Red Army to be sure.

Perhaps you have some idea of the numbers of Ukrainian Nationalist "bandits" held by the NKVD in Lviv, Kiev and other Ukrainian urban centers. Many were summarily executed by the NKVD rather than risk their falling into German hands.

I think that dissidents in Eastern Poland, including distrustful communists, banded together to harass the Red Army occupiers (39-41) and the liberators (44-50). I'm certain that the Lithuanian and Latvian and Estonian armed resistance groups followed a similar three-way division to the one you describe took place in Ukraine: - antisemites-fascists, nationalists opposing all imperialist occupiers, and willing or unwilling Soviet sympathizers.

Himmler raised two SS Galician, two SS Latvian and two SS Estonian divisions aside from many local antipartisan security detachments that supplemented the SS Einsatzgruppen and rear area security units.

I think some scenario designers might want to take these factors into account when choosing the nationality of the populace-work force in many locations on the map rather than sticking tothe Soviet default.

I don't know the numbers, however there is a Ukrainian Library in Toronto, that is suppose to be the best one outside of Ukraine, at St. Vladimir Institute (the name annoys most Ukrainians, as it should be St. Volodymyr, but the Canadians Anglicized the name, thinking Volodymyr in English is Vladimir; which also is Russian. I believe they have an online platform.

I agree I think the populace probably was used in a labour force way and that their effectiveness was probably not to the standard that either occupier wished for; they probably were also half starved.

I often wonder how many of the so called non-German members of SS divisions, in fact were front line troops, or were they just used as support units. Especially in light that we know the Union army in the American Civil war, claimed to have raised Freed Slaves to help fight the south, but most of these units never saw action and the Union Generals in fact used the freed slave units for clean up duty, grave digging etc.. There was I believe at least one unit that saw combat.

The point is if the Union Army was so bigoted in who fought in their army, I am sure the Nazis also took the same attitude, especially since they saw all Eastern Europeans (slavs) as sub human; of course they probably used it for as much propaganda as they could tweak out of it. No doubt when the division retreated they probably told the non-german members to hold the line for them.

I am sure any people forced to dig trenches for an occupier, probably did not dig as well, as well as the citizens of Leningrad or Moscow did, when they were asked to do the same thing. I am sure the people knew that if they help the Nazis, then they will be branded as collaborators! I am also sure that many Ukrainians knew if they help the Soviets, they could also be branded as collaborators by Ukrainian nationalists.

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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by chaos45 »

The hiwis more or less represent these 2nd line uses of other nationalities in the German army and it was a documented fact even by German Army regulations as the war went on.

As to frontline combat use---again a fact...now how useful these unit were depends on the timeline of the war...until mid to late 1943 fairly useful even in combat roles it would seem....however after the defeat at Kursk and the general retreat the German army began the eastern foreign troops reliability quickly declined--many deserted or just plain cut deals with red army units to "switch" sides for lesser punishment.

An old board game basically gave the German army a bunch of ost "brigade" weak units for anti-partisan and light frontline use, however once the Germans lost certain cities these units were all removed in the game to represent
desertion or outright switching sides.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by morvael »

The engine is not flexible enough to handle multiple nationalities on the Soviet side. Simple (and sad) as that. Even Rumanians after surrender become Soviet.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by lastkozak »

Well there are often other ways of dealing with minor phenomenon. If non Germans were in support roles for the Germans, one could calculate how many and introduce a percentage reduction in that units support capability. A little bit harder to dig trenches perhaps? Or when entrenching close to a city, not as many volunteers help?

As for nationalistic partisans, there could always be a roll to see if they 1) the personnel join the unit of the victorious (merge into a Soviet infantry unit), 2) Become a partisan, but for the opposing side (for all intent and purpose they act like a pro-german partisan behind the Soviet line), 3) Hide, the hex acts for both sides like a hidden partisan cadre is present, but the hex costs more to move through, or trace supply through; if retreating through it a roll for some additional attrition.

Typhoid was spreading through both the German and the Soviet ranks, as well as among the remaining inhabitants; my Grandfather's immediate family was wiped out by typhoid. I often wonder how much of the infection rate of military units was due to intentional acts to infect them, or perhaps never telling them which wells seemed to get people sick. (even a simple shrug of the shoulders when a German soldier asked if the water was clean, could result in spreading typhoid through an entire unit).

Not hard to reflect the negative impact of occupying a non-german ethnic/nationalist group.

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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by teddybbeer »

Latvian SS motorised unit in 1941? What unit it represents?
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by teddybbeer »

No 19. SS?
No 20. SS, but theres 300. zbv?

Maybe im blind... playing GC as German.
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RE: Non-Soviet Nationalities MIA in SU occupied locations

Post by Aufklaerungs »

I think Askey includes it as 2. SS Brigade RFSS (motZ) in his Barbarossa Series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_SS_Infantry_Brigade
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