8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

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charlie0311
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by charlie0311 »

As usual very well said ala Tele..

May I say, humbly, that is up to the developers to state their intentions.

I did leave something out of my last rant. That would be when the "edge" is found the "creators" fall in love with it and can't give it up.

Re hitting targets from high altitude, hmm, nope, as in never.

Drop 1000's, same target, a few get close, kinda, maybe some finally hit, maybe.

Operational guided (ballistic) ordinance did not appear for decades.
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Telemecus
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311
Operational guided (ballistic) ordinance did not appear for decades.

1943 apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_X

The above is a radio controlled example but I remember reading about wire controlled anti-ship rockets during the war in the Mediterranean as well. For the moment let us pass on the Japanese guided ordinance.
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charlie0311
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by charlie0311 »

The word "operational" in the sense of deployed to combat units and ready to be used in military operations is what I was referring to.

You guys were all little boys once, later pre-teens, teenagers etc. I suppose most lived with a family and had a father. Your father's were at work during the week and you were at school.

See above my remarks about my childhood. My father's social life involved having events etc, card parties, cook outs, lots of drinking. As a USAF officer, former bomber pilot, and finally SAC staff officer (G-5) and wing commander, who do think such a person would have a friends and companions and what would they likely be talking of. I would be the "gofer". I was bred and groomed to be an AF officer free ride to the academy. Well this was the time of the cold war, these guys all former bomber pilots of ww2 and now still in the same business. What was always the subject of conversation?

You are telling me something from wiki. If you weren't convinced by my personal experiences above it may not be possible. I don't want to type everything up. But ok, the wing command was b47, being used as recon "operationally". I have tried and tried to find some of the super cool photos that I remember. Nada, lots of propaganda and fairy tails. One such story even had a quote from Lemay, it was amusing and I was smiling, I even thought this may have happened until the next day. When the real life memory and events began to override the propaganda recently planted. I was looking for one at low level, maybe only 1000 ft, right over the Kremlin, you see the river below and here come the Migs. Up and away goes the 47.

Enormous amounts of stuff. One bomb damage photo starts to look like all the rest.

Wiki is not God and neither am I.

This thread and subject is only nominally about high altitude accuracy, the real topic is human behavior. I want you guys to have your fun. Yes, yes, triple yes. When I see quite a lot of stuff here, it sets off alarms bells, too often I fail to keep my mouth shut.

I'm here for amusement as well, a hobby you know.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I would make a suggestion of adding a house rule in your games. Specifically, both sides should be prohibited from conducting what amounts to precision bombing of industrial targets within cities by night.

I have some sympathy with this as it does seem strange you can fly across the Soviet Union to hit one precise kind of factory. My own thoughts were more that you could not bomb "named" factories trying to get at choke points. However I do think bombing general industry should be OK.

However I do feel that such a house rule or change by the developers needs to be accompanied by restricting some of the Soviet air forces to the rear areas for their industrial defence. Historically Soviet air forces did not just bunch up together close to the front. They had many aircraft because they were a big country with a lot to defend. There was never a time when virtually the whole Soviet Union was left without air cover and defenceless. Nor a time when all the air forces could just concentrate on the front lines.

Clearly it is not an exploit but an intended facet of the game. To be fair to the developers the Soviet factories were not comparable to the ones in the west or in the Reich. They were vast complexes integrating the whole supply chain. Eddie Chapman, the double agent for the British, could credibly fake a sabotage attack on a British aircraft factory because it was so small. It had hundreds of suppliers scattered over Britain which in turn had their own suppliers. If they were all co-located this would be the size of a town or small city in itself. So a Soviet factory was a more credible target even if you were only likely to hit the upstream supply line rather than the final assembly. So it was possible to find out where they were and that daylight bombing of these is not too incredible. Just maybe exaggerated and not what the Eastern front happened to be about (it was in the Barbarossa directive for the end of the campaign though).

However so far in all AARs and guides the point has always been made that strategic bombing is a waste of Axis air force resources. One thing I hoped to show is that it is not. Does this mean I have succeeded? I believe it is worthwhile for "named" factories although is more debatable for general industry. There are two critical weaknesses. One is that 1% damage on an expanding factory which has a long way to go in its expansion creates disproportionate losses. The other is that while damage is cumulative, repair is only sequential. So the first 1% damage matters very little. But an extra 1% damage on top of a lot of existing damage is catastrophic if it lasts for so many turns.

So perhaps a first lesson for all games is do not leave the Soviet Union without fighter cover. We had so many turns of uncontested, unopposed, unescorted, free daylight bombing that large damage levels were built up. Now there are significant probabilities that factories will shut down. And so it does make sense to fly opposed bombing missions even if they only got a few percentage points of damage because they will last for so long.

Bottom line for Soviet players - on turn 1 get some fighter cover for your factories. Do not let the genie out of the bottle. Do not react when it is too late. The norm should be little strategic bombing as it is ineffective, but significant air forces committed across the rear as a deterrent to make sure it is ineffective.


The old AAR's were correct. Night bombing had very little damage to factories or any at all back in 2010 & 2011 & 2012. I used to try out bombing back then and you were lucky if you received 1% (most of the time 0%) damage while loosing a great many aircraft. Now after the Air updates in the last year and half to two years this has come to the forefront and made such a strategy viable. So those old AAR's were correct that bombing was a waste back then.

Now I do agree with M60 that the damage caused by night bombing is way too high. I also agree with you Telemecus that planes should be allocated to the defense of these factories or suffer the consequences. The end takeaway that I have is that the Night Operations the fatality rate is way too high in the last couple of years patches. We really need to find viable sources to validate night bombing effectiveness then model this correctly in WITE1.0. Which at the moment I believe the system is way too generous at this moment.
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Telemecus
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Telemecus »

Before we get carried away we should remember in this game we are talking about day bombing. My experience of night bombing is it is not very effective and at best slows the repair rate. So only really useful after you have a large damage built up by day bombing (which you should not allow to happen in the first place), or on vulnerable expanding factories. For us the key point was getting all bombing of even these distant targets to be from bases on rail lines so there is absolutely no question of creating supply or vehicle problems. That is the key part which makes strategic bombing effective. From old AARs it seemed to me most thought it ineffective because they were using bases a long way from supply heads. The cost-benefit ratio was just too high.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

I really feel obligated to bring this up, given the nature of the discussion over this Axis air strategy that is being highlighted.

This is intended to explain in large part why it has been successful, and is not intended to dump on someone who is not likely dropping by this forum again, at least it doesn't seem so.

From the STAVKA multiplayer thread, Post #13. From Panzerjager Hortlund:

As Commander Im responsible for all airforce- things. I will do all airforce things before I send the turn to the front-commanders. But I will of cource use the airforce to support you guys as best I can.

We will not send the airforce to the national reserve. I understand the logic behind the reasoning from a game-perspective, but I refuse to play like that. The Motherland is under attack and is fighting for its life. The idea to send all airunits to reserve airfields behind the Urals in such a situation is just gamey and completely unrealistic.


It is for individual players to decide what is gamey and what is not, what is realistic and what is not. Having said that, newer players need to understand this:

If you play this game like the Soviets played historically, against a similarly experienced player, you will lose, and often lose badly.

It has been tried, and not by someone who has played a couple games. Read this AAR from a couple years ago from a player who was experienced, quite good, and tried the "historical" route.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3539999&mpage=1&key=

This game over the years has seen the Axis side buffed in order to create an element of play balance. As the Soviet, you can't afford the luxury of trying to play certain aspects of the game as it was historically done without paying a penalty.

Back to this game, I do no not see any evidence that any Soviet air unit ever went back to the reserves in order to recover morale. We aren't even talking about wholesale removal, nothing ever went back.

By turn 9, the morale of the VVS was well below the point where it could be effective.

Image

I did try to do some work after taking over the air war on T10 to recover from the situation, but by this time most of the reserves of fighter bombers had been used up and at this time there simply aren't enough new aircraft coming on line. So what happens next is a downward spiral that cannot be recovered from without a certain amount of time.

The point is, had a more experienced player been managing the air war from Turn 1, this Axis strategy would not have been the success it appears. The only new thing that has been added to this equation, and Dinglir should get due credit for this, was experimenting with the whole day-night bombing thing. Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, it contains elements that are also totally unrealistic. Night bombing on the eastern front was primarily a U-2VS thing. If someone wants to come forward with examples of large scale night bombing, and we're talking night not flying in at first daylight, to take out an airfield or industrial area, please do. Also, please don't, as Charlie points out, assume what the developers came up with was intended. Very creative people have always looking for that opportunity to stretch the envelope, it doesn't change the fact that nighttime industrial bombing is largely impractical. The closest the Luftwaffe got to was bombing the commercial docks in England. The whole Urals bomber concept never was more than that. The whole Barbarossa strategy was laid out at the very beginning in the Fuhrerdirective 21:

The German Wehrmacht must be prepared to crush Soviet Russia in a quick campaign even before the conclusion of the war against England.

Finally, as to the question is this strategy effective at least in reigning in the VVS. My answer is you really can't say when the first 17 turns aren't even done. All four IL-2 factories were evacuated to the Urals. That will provide 216 aircraft per turn in time, and I have yet to see a game where I've even come remotely close to being short of them. As to fighter bombers, I have thousands of lend lease aircraft gathering dust every game I play. If this game continues for time, they will simply be employed to make up for any shortfalls in domestic production. So my prediction for the long term would be for the fighter bombers, marginal impact, for tactical bombers negligible impact. Level bombers aren't employed in significant numbers by summer 1942, so marginal impact. Transports and recon, tbd.



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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I really feel obligated to bring this up, given the nature of the discussion over this Axis air strategy that is being highlighted.

This is intended to explain in large part why it has been successful, and is not intended to dump on someone who is not likely dropping by this forum again, at least it doesn't seem so.

From the STAVKA multiplayer thread, Post #13. From Panzerjager Hortlund:

As Commander Im responsible for all airforce- things. I will do all airforce things before I send the turn to the front-commanders. But I will of cource use the airforce to support you guys as best I can.

We will not send the airforce to the national reserve. I understand the logic behind the reasoning from a game-perspective, but I refuse to play like that. The Motherland is under attack and is fighting for its life. The idea to send all airunits to reserve airfields behind the Urals in such a situation is just gamey and completely unrealistic.


It is for individual players to decide what is gamey and what is not, what is realistic and what is not. Having said that, newer players need to understand this:

If you play this game like the Soviets played historically, against a similarly experienced player, you will lose, and often lose badly.

It has been tried, and not by someone who has played a couple games. Read this AAR from a couple years ago from a player who was experienced, quite good, and tried the "historical" route.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3539999&mpage=1&key=

This game over the years has seen the Axis side buffed in order to create an element of play balance. As the Soviet, you can't afford the luxury of trying to play certain aspects of the game as it was historically done without paying a penalty.

Back to this game, I do no not see any evidence that any Soviet air unit ever went back to the reserves in order to recover morale. We aren't even talking about wholesale removal, nothing ever went back.

By turn 9, the morale of the VVS was well below the point where it could be effective.

Image

I did try to do some work after taking over the air war on T10 to recover from the situation, but by this time most of the reserves of fighter bombers had been used up and at this time there simply aren't enough new aircraft coming on line. So what happens next is a downward spiral that cannot be recovered from without a certain amount of time.

The point is, had a more experienced player been managing the air war from Turn 1, this Axis strategy would not have been the success it appears. The only new thing that has been added to this equation, and Dinglir should get due credit for this, was experimenting with the whole day-night bombing thing. Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, it contains elements that are also totally unrealistic. Night bombing on the eastern front was primarily a U-2VS thing. If someone wants to come forward with examples of large scale night bombing, and we're talking night not flying in at first daylight, to take out an airfield or industrial area, please do. Also, please don't, as Charlie points out, assume what the developers came up with was intended. Very creative people have always looking for that opportunity to stretch the envelope, it doesn't change the fact that nighttime industrial bombing is largely impractical. The closest the Luftwaffe got to was bombing the commercial docks in England. The whole Urals bomber concept never was more than that. The whole Barbarossa strategy was laid out at the very beginning in the Fuhrerdirective 21:

The German Wehrmacht must be prepared to crush Soviet Russia in a quick campaign even before the conclusion of the war against England.

Finally, as to the question is this strategy effective at least in reigning in the VVS. My answer is you really can't say when the first 17 turns aren't even done. All four IL-2 factories were evacuated to the Urals. That will provide 216 aircraft per turn in time, and I have yet to see a game where I've even come remotely close to being short of them. As to fighter bombers, I have thousands of lend lease aircraft gathering dust every game I play. If this game continues for time, they will simply be employed to make up for any shortfalls in domestic production. So my prediction for the long term would be for the fighter bombers, marginal impact, for tactical bombers negligible impact. Level bombers aren't employed in significant numbers by summer 1942, so marginal impact. Transports and recon, tbd.




I see you have an 82 experienced I-16 Type 24, you need to be NERFED!!! That kind of experience is not allowed on the Soviet side. All kidding aside a very nice write up :)
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Sardaukar »

Hi guys,

Just wanted to pass by to tell I am OK. Just extremely busy right now in office and house-hunting.

Cheers!
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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M60A3TTS
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

Turn 16 in dropbox
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Stelteck »

I was not expecting my panzer division alone to hold the moscow encerclement.

Although you could have increased your chance by transfering all divisions to the same "Jukov" command for both attacks, it still confirm my opinion that the lack of +1 attack bonus in 1941 hurt a lot.
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Telemecus
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 16 for Soviets in Dropbox.

First time a full four person side has returned the go on the second day!

Although mud helps in that regard of course.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

And we all know what follows mud. [;)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIrfF08azwc
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

Turn 17 up for the Axis.
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 17 for Soviets in dropbox
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M60A3TTS
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

STAVKA has the file.
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Telemecus
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Telemecus »

Many thanks - Soviet turn back. And also I think the quickest go for any team ever . We have lost our previous record (we were one man down at the time too). We still hold the record for quickest go for a four man team though at least.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

Once the Axis turn 18 is complete and sent, the Soviet multiplayer thread is open to everyone. That includes the Axis players.
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by Telemecus »

This turn Axis North is being covered by Stelteck.

lowsugar has asked to step back from being a commander each turn. lowsugar was the longest serving still active member of the team game and I am going to miss lowsugar being our stalwart in the North. There is no question of leaving the team though - we will not let it! So lowsugar will be with us on the victory parade after the Soviet surrender! But I did want to post our appreciation of all lowsugar has done for the team and the game while North commander. And I will be looking forward to lowsugar's military advice. It is always very short, and very to the point!

Also who can forget lowsugar for delivering the greatest quote of the game so far - "I'm the one who shags the secretary!" [:D]

Going forward I am not sure if we should post for a new vacancy for the Axis team yet. Or wait for the end of the mud turns. Or wait until there is a clearer picture of what the 1942 set up will be like. This may be something both sides will want to work out together. Going into 1942 will it still make sense for each side to have a North/Centre-West/South commander? The Soviet side has two reserves but is one active ground commander short. If a different set up going forward is better we can agree any rule changes for that. Let us know your thoughts!
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M60A3TTS
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by M60A3TTS »

You should post for a replacement immediately. I don't have a timeframe for Sardaukar or EvK to return, but I'm going to give them until the end of the month for one to return before looking for a new player.
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RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

I by mistake thought that the Soviet team is at 100% TOE right now. RL has cooled down a bit so I can play some turns again. I cannot guarantee for the future but right now its possible. So happy to assume command over a theatre.
Team games are less demanding in overall time commitment, but you need to be able to spontaneously free some time when the turn is ready for you don't want to let others wait for you, and the latter one usually is the problem for me. But atm its fine :)
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