Nuclear Weapons?

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Akmatov
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Nuclear Weapons?

Post by Akmatov »

Just starting out, but seeing no indication that nuclear weapons are present in Research or the Manual. Where are they hidden?
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Hairog
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by Hairog »

The World War Three 1946 Mod uses a script to mimic the Mark III nuclear Bomb. There are only 4 available in May, 1946 which is historically accurate. Basically the US stopped making bombs in anywhere near the numbers required to win a war between 1946 - 1948 as we moved on to peace time. Even then we only had few bombs and virtually no trained crews and equipment to deliver them. The scientists, engineers etc. were let go. Why would we need to make more? Who would we use it on, Uncle Joe who was our brave ally against Hitler and Tojo? It was considered a waste of time and effort.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff were unaware of the number of weapons available and based their plans on erroneous numbers.

Another thing to consider was that the Mark III was not a tactical weapon. It had to be assembled over a period of days and then had to be used within 48 hrs. due to a battery buried deep inside that would run out of juice. Then it had to be taken apart and the battery replaced.

Another impediment to their use was the need for a loading pit specially designed for the bombs. There were only two operational in 1946. The one used for the attacks on Japan was already in disrepair.

I agree with the decision to exclude a nuclear weapon that you can toss around at will. In reality we didn't, for the time period depicted. The dearth of nukes is historically accurate.
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The Land
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by The Land »

ORIGINAL: Akmatov

Just starting out, but seeing no indication that nuclear weapons are present in Research or the Manual. Where are they hidden?

That's because they're not in.

Nukes are very rare in WW2 strategy games because players have the benefit of hindsight and because edge conditions are very poor for game balance. Make nukes powerful and rushable, and you create a game where all that matters is pressing the win button. Make them weak and you make them pointless as the player will have won the war anyway.
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Akmatov
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by Akmatov »

First, ref The Land's comments. What you have to say is quite relevant in terms of game design. However, given that this is supposed to be a roughly historically based game all important aspects of the war should be included. Especially as all, or most, major countries had nuclear research programs.

My suggestion would be that the costs and possibilities of success/failure would be enough to make a nuclear program both highly resources intensive, as it was, and with possibilities of failure, as was the case as far as the participants at the time knew.

However, given that this is a Eurocentric game, it really isn't all that important.
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Akmatov
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by Akmatov »

Second, ref Hairog's comments.
"the Mark III nuclear Bomb. There are only 4 available in May, 1946 which is historically accurate."
I have to find this unlikely, though I have not been able to find specific info on bombs actually produced and when. However, there was a bomb ready on 23 August, 14 days after Nagasaki. After that planned production was 3 per month of the Fat Man/Mark III bombs. Production was not stopped on the day of Japan's surrender as there were two available for testing in 1946. So after Nagasaki I know of two more produced and while there was a massive slow down of production, 4 produced after August 1945 just seems too low. A total of 120 were produced with 'mass production' started in April 1946, no info on production from August 1945 through March 1946, as far as I can find.

If you have a source on the numbers produced, online preferably, I really like to see it as I can not find one and surely the info is out there.
"Another thing to consider was that the Mark III was not a tactical weapon"
Totally true in terms of fast deployment, but it was planned for use in Operation Olympic, they were planning on using 7. It could definitely be used on geographic or logistic/transportation systems/choke points, as was planned for Olympic. And reserve formations and HQs might could be targeted as well.
a loading pit specially designed for the bombs - There were only two operational in 1946
I find it unlikely that a suitable hole in the ground and lifting equipment couldn't have been quickly prepared. Given that the Strategic Air Command was originally established in the U.S. Army Air Forces on 21 March 1946,
I find it unlikely that the US didn't have the capability to use nuclear weapons in 1947.
I agree with the decision to exclude a nuclear weapon that you can toss around at will. In reality we didn't, for the time period depicted. The dearth of nukes is historically accurate.

Unaware anyone has suggested "nuclear weapon that you can toss around at will", but it would be highly historically inaccurate to exclude such weapons. Once it is figured out, all you need is a weapon, a B-29 fitted to carry one, a suitably equipped hole in the ground and the men trained to do it; I'm sure the AF had such ppl in uniform. The real question is how many weapons were actually available. Once again, I'd really like to know about the production of nucs in the 1940s.




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nnason
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by nnason »

A good source for some of this information is a book, "Raven Rock."
Live Long and Prosper,
Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired
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Hairog
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by Hairog »

Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, May, 1982 "U.S. Nuclear stockpile, 1945 to 1950" by David Alan Rosenberg - page 25 is a good place to start.



Here is the caveat...
"In the early years, however, stockpile totals may well have included all nuclear cores and non-nuclear assemblies, including those intended for weapons' effects tests, such as at Bikini in 1946, or proof tests of new core and mechanical assembly designs, such as at Eniwetok in 1948. The documents now available make no distinction between test weapons and other weapons, nor do they provide any precise indicators of how the 1940s nuclear weapons stockpile was calculated or defined. Given the extreme secrecy which surrounded all atomic information in the 1940s, it is conceivable that no conclusive evidence exists as to whether test weapons were considered part of the stockpile during this period."


Two other sources:
American War Plans 1945-1950 by Steven T. Ross
Fighting World War Three from the Middle East - Allied Contingency Plans, 1945-1954


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nnason
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RE: Nuclear Weapons?

Post by nnason »

Very good information. Thanks for taking the time to post.

For a little historical background. I was an Artillery officer in the 70's and 80's and worked with practice nuclear weapons. The 155mm weighted in at a little over 100 pounds and the 8 inch weight in at a little over 200 pounds. They were both gun type atomic weapons. In 30 years weapon weight went from 9,000 pounds to 100. I think yields are still classified.
Live Long and Prosper,
Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired
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