P.T. Boats

[Rusty1961]

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

Tactical doctrine called for the PT boat to idle on 1 engine, with the other 2 engines off, which Kennedy was doing.
The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

[spence]

The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

I can't completely excuse Kennedy, his exec, the radar operator and anyone else on deck from having not seen those destroyers in sufficient time to avoid being rammed. It's my recollection that nobody on the Japanese destroyer saw the PT 109 until the two ships were in extremis as far as a collision was concerned. But I have been on the bridge at sea on a moonless, humid, and utterly black night in the tropics so it does seem conceivable that they just didn't those darkened ships until too late. I don't remember reading anything re the PT's radar but certainly the early surface search radars could be quirky.

I recall an incident in the 70s where I went up to the bridge to relieve the watch for the 8-midnite. Before relieving the OOD I checked the radar repeater, saw nothing there, and then started talking to the off-going OOD to see if there was anything to pass along. I was just about to say "Sir I relieve you" when all of a sudden a set of running lights went on not 25 yards just off the port bow. Those same lights then "drifted" by the porthole in the CO's cabin about 10 yards off the port side. The CO noticed. I was never so relieved that I hadn't quite said those fateful words.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: spence

The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

I can't completely excuse Kennedy, his exec, the radar operator and anyone else on deck from having not seen those destroyers in sufficient time to avoid being rammed. It's my recollection that nobody on the Japanese destroyer saw the PT 109 until the two ships were in extremis as far as a collision was concerned. But I have been on the bridge at sea on a moonless, humid, and utterly black night in the tropics so it does seem conceivable that they just didn't those darkened ships until too late. I don't remember reading anything re the PT's radar but certainly the early surface search radars could be quirky.

I recall an incident in the 70s where I went up to the bridge to relieve the watch for the 8-midnite. Before relieving the OOD I checked the radar repeater, saw nothing there, and then started talking to the off-going OOD to see if there was anything to pass along. I was just about to say "Sir I relieve you" when all of a sudden a set of running lights went on not 25 yards just off the port bow. Those same lights then "drifted" by the porthole in the CO's cabin about 10 yards off the port side. The CO noticed. I was never so relieved that I hadn't quite said those fateful words.

It's been a very long time since I read a book about PT-109 (I was a kid) but your story is consistent with what I (vaguely) remember them recounting: it was pitch black and they saw nothing until the last minute.

Edit: Correct 'say' to 'saw'.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

If he had been stationery, would it have been wise to remain so? Perhaps the worst he would have experienced was to be inked and stamped.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: spence

The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

I can't completely excuse Kennedy, his exec, the radar operator and anyone else on deck from having not seen those destroyers in sufficient time to avoid being rammed. It's my recollection that nobody on the Japanese destroyer saw the PT 109 until the two ships were in extremis as far as a collision was concerned. But I have been on the bridge at sea on a moonless, humid, and utterly black night in the tropics so it does seem conceivable that they just didn't those darkened ships until too late. I don't remember reading anything re the PT's radar but certainly the early surface search radars could be quirky.

I recall an incident in the 70s where I went up to the bridge to relieve the watch for the 8-midnite. Before relieving the OOD I checked the radar repeater, saw nothing there, and then started talking to the off-going OOD to see if there was anything to pass along. I was just about to say "Sir I relieve you" when all of a sudden a set of running lights went on not 25 yards just off the port bow. Those same lights then "drifted" by the porthole in the CO's cabin about 10 yards off the port side. The CO noticed. I was never so relieved that I hadn't quite said those fateful words.

We have within the past year had two US destroyers or frigates accidentally rammed by commercial ships. I wasn't aware that PT boats in WWII had any sort of radar but if they did it surely was inferior to what the current US Navy ships have. Right?

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

If he had been stationery, would it have been wise to remain so? Perhaps the worst he would have experienced was to be inked and stamped.

Oh! [&o]

[MakeeLearn]

Could there have been a 2nd Destroyer?

[spence]

Could there have been a 2nd Destroyer?

I read "Japanese Destroyer Captain" a long time ago but IIRC there were 4 destroyers in column with Capt Hara in Shigure last in the column.

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

Tactical doctrine called for the PT boat to idle on 1 engine, with the other 2 engines off, which Kennedy was doing.
The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

I do not believe all PT's had radar at that time (Kennedy's didn't, according to Wikipedia). They were also quite unreliable.
That said, there is such a thing as "the heat of the battle".

Fred

[BBfanboy]

They might have been expecting the Japanese to come from the other direction so no one was looking in the direction they did come. I vaguely recall the movie showing the crew looking mostly in one direction. USN intel at the time was reading Japanese ops orders and working out their routes and times so they could have expected the Japanese to be on a return trip but they were delayed and were just going to their pick-up port. IIRC the Japanese were moving cut-off troops from island to island.

[m10bob]

My dad-in law was a Coastie in the Pacific, and he was very critical of the incident, claiming that at idle that crew should have HEARD the tincans coming.
In fairness to him, he had served for a time on a near identical Coast Guard boat off the coast of New York and New Jersey after leaving the Wakefield.

After speaking to other vets of that area, I was told Blackett Straits are very noisy with waves constantly pounding between the several islands of that group.
Too, a single Packard v 12 would have been noisy, even at idle.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/new ... 109_2.html

[spence]

claiming that at idle that crew should have HEARD the tincans coming.

Regardless of the wave noise, or the wind noise, or the noise of the PT's own engine at idle, the steam powered DDs made very little noise. I served on a couple of the last of the steam powered CG cutters (sisters of the CGC Taney {in the game}) and it was truly remarkable how quiet those ships were compared to the more modern diesels and gas turbine powered ships. Although the steam turbines made considerable noise in the engineroom itself, on deck the only noise that could be discerned was from the forced air blowers for the boilerroom(s) and engineroom(s).


NOTE: CGC Taney was larger (tonnage-it was slightly shorter) than most pre-war DDs but had a powerplant with only one boilerroom and one engineroom. Because the purpose of a DD called for it to go in harms way DDs were built with two boilerrooms and two enginerooms to allow them to survive battle damage. It is notable that although DDs had high pressure steam plants (1200 psi I think)and twice the boilers/engines of the CGC cutter with its low pressure steam plant (400 psi) the speed advantage of a typical DD was only slightly more than half again that of the CGC cutter.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
In Spanish ship, barco, is a masculine noun, and all military-class ships (portaavion - aircraft carrier) are masculine. So all pronouns that refer to these nouns are masculine as well. El, lo, etc... . It is not uncommon, however, for Spanish speakers to give their ships female names: Santa Rosa, Santa Isabela, or Nuestra Señora de Calmuchita for example. A ship with a female name can be referred to by either the masculine or the feminine pronoun, depending upon context. For example, it would be appropriate to use the feminine pronoun in Spanish in the following sentence, ¨the Santa Rosa took a full broadside, and she shuddered at the impact.¨

My German and French are very rusty, but I believe that one sees the same usage in these languages as well.

Usage is pretty much the same in French. The basic nouns for ship are all masculine: bateau, navire, vaisseau. The names of most classes are masculine too : porte avion, croiseur, contre torpilleur, cuirassé, sous marin, but some, like frégate or corvette, are feminine. Ships of feminine class (frégates, corvettes) often get feminine names (la Pallas, la Vénus) whereas ship with masculine classes (cuirassé, contre torpilleur) would get masculine names (le triomphant, le Richelieu). But there are exceptions: la Jeanne d'Arc used to be a frégate, and then was a croiseur (masculine). In such cases, the pronoun would usually go by the name of the ship and not her class.

Francois

[geofflambert]

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[wdolson]

From what I read, the PT-109 lashed the 37mm AT gun to the deck the day before she was lost. The 1/35 scale PT-109 from Italeri has the 37mm gun.

As the PT boats' jobs evolved from hunting enemy warships to barges, they took off torpedoes and upgunned the boats. A lot sported 37mm auto cannons on an AA mount scrounged from P-39s. It was pretty effective against barges.

Most PT boats also had a 40mm on the stern. That was standard factory equipment.

Bill

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

.

I can assure you nothing got hit.

I tested if naval search mission can replace naval attack mission. The purpose of the test was to saturate an area with Nells/Betties on naval search and rely on "reported hit" messages for sinkings. I got SIX messages for one Allied patrol craft ship in one turn. Switched sides on the next turn and voila - the Allied ship had zero damage.

Use naval attack if you want to win the war.

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Most PT boats also had a 40mm on the stern. That was standard factory equipment.

Bill

But only later, I believe.

Fred

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: spence
Incidentally referring to the first sentence of this post I know that a ship is a "he" in both the Russian and German navies. I once asked a Frenchman what the sex of his ship was and he stared at me like I was crazy. The noun bateau is masculine though so I think if a ship has any sex in French it's probably male. Be happy to hear any further thoughts on this topic from the international community to be found here.

In the German language a ship is NOT a "he". The nouns "das Schiff" = ship and "das Boot" = boat are neutral. Ship types can me masculine like "der Zerstörer" = destroyer, feminine like "die Fregatte" = frigate or neutral like "das Schlachtschiff" = battleship.

Nonetheless, all individual ships are considered being feminine - some say it is because their maintenance is so expensive.

Although most German WWII warship names are honoring a male person, we say "die Tirpitz", " die Bismarck", "die Scharnhorst", "die Admiral Graf Spee", "die Lützow" etc.

Captain Lindemann of the Bismarck insisted against tradition that his ship should be called "der Bismarck" because such a large and powerful ship could only be a male. This did not stuck however.

Be advised that German grammar can be odd and that the dative and genitive uses "der" in connection with female nouns, just to confuse foreigners. For example, we say:

a) Die Bismarck wurde selbstversenkt. > The Bismarck was scuttled.
b) Er ging mit der Bismarck unter. > He went down with the Bismarck.
c) Das schicksalhafte Ende der Bismarck. > The fateful end of the Bismarck.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Most PT boats also had a 40mm on the stern. That was standard factory equipment.

Bill

But only later, I believe.

Fred

Here's a drawing of an early Elco:
http://www.ptboats.org/20-05-05-drawings-002.html