SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

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jjdenver
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SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by jjdenver »

I think it's pretty normal for SU to claim Bessarabia in the first turn or three.

What is optimal for the SU to try to accomplish after this? I know it's somewhat situation but assume it looks like either a close the med and barb 42 or a barb 41. Also assume JP is making some effort to reduce China, perhaps even conquer if it works out that way. Also assume there is some house rule in place to simulate the JP-SU enforced peace if Vladivostok falls or 3 Persian resources are taken.

Is Persia good to do early, maybe M/A 40? Or should SU be heading for Finland before going after Persia? Is DOW'ing JP wise?
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by Centuur »

It depends on what Japan is doing and what kind of units the Euroaxis are building. Also: how are things in France?

Bessarabia is a must, of course. But after that, that's the big question. Personally I like taking Persia (and after that Iraq), since the oil is quite usefull for reorganisation and production purposes. However, Japan might not let you grab all that oil and goes to war with you over it (by sending units unto the Persian oil fields, which are quite difficult to dislodge in those mountains, especially if they send a couple of big BB's and you are playing with defensive shore bombardment). And if your Siberian army is fighting in Persia, you might lose some resources to the Japanese around Vladivostok, if you don't have a good enough defense force in the Far East.

Japan can force the USSR into action against them, by doing well in China. Uncle Joe is the only one who can put pressure on the Japanese by maintaining quite a good force in Siberia at the Manchurian border and a DoW against Japan can lift pressure on the Chinese when it looks like they are going down the drain...

What are the Euroaxis building for? Is it a Barbarossa 1941? Or are they aiming for The Rock? If they are going into Spain and the Japanese aren't doing to good in China, I would go for Persia and Iraq with the Soviets. It's something of a first defense line in case the Axis succeed in closing the Med totally and prevents them from aligning Iraq to their side in a Barbarossa 1942. No way you should allow the Fascist Hordes to cross the mountains into the Motherland from the south. You don't want the add the Turkish hordes to their side. On the other end: a close the Med will usually see Uncle Sam into the war somewhat faster than a Barbarossa 1941, so you should be all right if you have planned a good defensive building strategy for the USSR (a lot of FTR2 and a lot of cheap infantry type units on the map).

If it looks like a Barbarossa 1941 the Euroaxis are building for, you have to be really careful what you do. If Japan is doing well in China, you have to do something to draw Japamese troops into Manchuria and you should consider to declare war on Japan if they don't have a good garrison there but on the other end: a war against both Japan and Germany is very dangerous for the Soviets. For me, this is the most difficult situation you can get into. And the thing is: you can't predict which way the war in China will go and how long the French can hold out.

One thing is sure: build for defense and not for offense and try to avoid losses when you go to war...


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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by jjdenver »

I'd also considered setting up for Finland in 39, then work south to Bessarabia then on to Persia assuming JP doesn't need to be DOW'ed because of China.

What about kicking the game off with a DOW on JP early, maybe MA 40 after doing Bessarabia. Do you ever just plan to do this instead of Persia after Bessarabia? Then if things look like war with GE in 41 give up everything east of Chita? The problem here seems to be that this will invite a JP sitzkrieg in China and they will just focus on pounding SU and it lets the Germans plan from the jump to go Barb 41 since SU will be weaker and they are already the most vulnerable of the big allied powers.

Maybe it's best to just tend your knitting as SU and go for Bessarabi and/or Persia/Iraq and Finland and if JP DOW's even in 41 along with a Barb 41 just let them have everything east of Chita without much or any fight?
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by brian brian »

the Russians should make a first plan of .... sitting still

but gamers are gonna game so many Russian players go off on the adventures they want to have, without regard to what the Axis are doing

if the Axis are ignoring North Africa while building alle Panzers and lotsa lotsa Italian pilots, it's danger Joe Stalin, danger Joe Stalin

will Joe be ready to face 10 Axis HQ and 7 Axis air missions per impulse in a long, brutally warm September/October 1941, the Turn of Doom? Did the Allies pass on every chance to go move first for the whole game, to keep the Initiative Marker absolutely as Favor > Allies as possible? Doe Joe Stalin want to move first in September/October 1941 so he can move another factory out of Moscow while his precious horde of T-34s backs off to the East just beyond Stuka range yet again? Yes, Joe Stalin very much wants to move first in the Fall of 1941.

seriously, until you have faced a maximized "kitchen sink" Barbarossa, you can't be daydreaming about where all the Russians can go sailing the seas of Cheese while they calmly await their inevitable war with Adolf

once you have that sorted out and determine Russia does have some room to maneuver cuz Uncle Adolf has decided to stick a Luftwaffe dagger in Franco's back, the Russians should also consider another option that gaming gamers find oh-so-boring: "Stuffing" the border. It seems that when Joe Stalin parks his Cadillac, err, his precious horde of T-34s in Poland and leaves them there, poor Adolf gets more and more and more nervous until he starts subtly decreasing the reinforcements for the Feld Marschalls trying to fight Winnie. And Joe does want some help later on from Winnie and especially Winnie's banker - Uncle Sugar. And the more calm, cool, and collected Uncle Joe stays, the sooner the Jolly Green Giant comes riding to the rescue. Things can get pretty grim when the Panthers start crossing the Volga in early summer 1942 and Adolf hasn't even showed off his Tiger yet.

all of that babbled, Russia can think deeply about adventures close to home. there are interesting up-sides to skipping Bessarabia if your KGB spies discern certain Byzantine Axis designs on the Balkans. the down-side is automatically losing the factory in Odessa, and every factory counts - the Russians are stockpiling one Oil in Siberia every single turn, right? and requesting that Franklin Delano get some pro-Communist bills through the rabidly reactionary US Congress (Entry Option 19), so some British Oil can flow in to Russia starting in 1940 and the Russians can maximize their Build Points AND SAVE ONE OIL IN SIBERIA EVERY SINGLE TURN, right?

but normally Bessarabia is an automatic move. more confusing and scary to Russian WiF players is those über tough Finlanders - they kicked Joe's butt in history, so are they maybe better off left alone? There sure seem to be a lot of Finnish-American voters over in the United States, too. But a really handy way for Uncle Sam to deliver the Sugar is in two key Russian hexes - Murmansk and Archangel. Archangel is a cool place - too cool as the ocean freezes over and some turns the best the Allies can hope for is to burn up some Yankee oil stockpiles delivered during the 24 hour days of summertime, in Russian factories railed there just after the Panzers crossed the Dniester or whatever the heck it's called. (The Bug?). Meanwhile Murmansk can unload Ford Trucks every single turn - unless the Finlanders have skied in too close to the railroad tracks (always a really great place to ski cross-country, trust me, I'm a Finlander only 4 generations back). so this argues for Russia demanding that Mannerheim move those forward ski-camps back a hundred kilometers or so, to give Timoshenko and a couple fast INF, a couple CAV, and maybe a Russian Ski Division a better chance to hold open the railroad to Murmansk for that factory from Odessa and the one from Vitebesk too - the better to assemble T-34s right there in Murmansk, from Allied parts.

now perhaps Adolf will call Joe's bluff and order Mannerheim to mobilize and duke it out with Uncle Joe. This will hurt Joe in the American Congress, unfortunately, but Joe has to be ready. Not to march on Helsinki, all the way, but to conquer the Finnish north while the bulk of the Finlander Army has little choice but to circle the wagons around Helsinki. Joe doesn't need Helsinki, though he will want to have it before Jul/Aug 45, cuz it is one of THOSE hexes that determine who will be King of the World in the 1950s. But in the short run, Joe can take those nifty Nickel mines that Adolf loves so much, and pretty much guarantee that Winnie and Frankie have a nice, no Foreign-Troop-Commitment port to land garrison troops at. Cuz those pesky Finlanders will be making Partisan forces here, there, and everywhere behind Joe's lines (especially true in MWiF's modified Partisan system), and Joe will have his hands full with just some limited objectives in Finland.

Which all but precludes adventures in the Maritime Provinces (you can't pretend to be Uncle Joe Stalin without knowing the names of the parts of his Empire) in 1940, or the Middle East either. A good Japanese player just drools at the sight of Russian forces massed on the Persian border. A crafty Tojo knows this will result in the Rising Sun picking up probably 3 Oil, with more goodies in easy reach of the IJN's withering Battleship salvos along the Vladivostok coast. Adolf likes nothing more than to see Joe get tangled in Siberian quicksand, when Joe discovers he can't move Siberian Snow Storm Troopers to the West while his precious industrial machinery is using up all his train engines headed East.

So I say consider No Bessarabia in some games, if you feel lucky, Joe, and also consider Demanding those clearly marked Borderlands, while being ready to swoop in past those if the Finns want to fight, which they frequently will, because the guy wearing the Adolf hat is a gamer too. While not going on any adventures elsewhere, unless poor liddle Adolf is losing dozens of divisions assaulting The Rock. Then things are different.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by Dabrion »

Good advice by Brian.

All early game activities for Russia should be focused on gearing up, reducing pact resources and not touching Uncle Sam precious USE chits (they are your life line too!)! Finnland -> Bessarabia my usual route. Contest the garrison through '40, and watch closely what happens after France. Don't get tackled at the border ever! Defend the Dnjepr, if it cracks withdraw in order.

Persia: Proactive Persia is a -1USE chit +3oil for Japan move.. 80% of the time. There is a point to it if you have a neutrality pact with Japan and the garrison is safe. You have to do it reactively if the Axis takes Suez and moves into the Middle East. Russia should take out Persia and Iraq in that case. Proactively it is a bad idea if you have competent opponents for the reasons Brian layed out (3oil swing, Japan will dow, keep the oil and take the undefended pacific resources too, all while you roll snake eyes on a then worthless Teheran :).

The game of Russia is to dodge the Wehrmacht in '41 and '42, save the bulk of your army in a fighting withdrawl to then have a come-back in '43 to become a monster in '44++. Keys to make that happen are: no distractions, save your army, save your factories, be stingy and have an eye on the economic aspect of the conflict. Watch builds closely and use that information. Once Germany has you at a point where you are barely replacing losses you have basically lost the conflict economically and only lend-lease can save you. There are few things on the Euromap that are worth holding onto for Russia (specifically: un-railed factories and related: vital rail links for un-railed factories); at least not at the price-point of multiple 60+ BP loss summer turn, and they are inevitable if you linger too long under Axis fighter cover!
It is summer '42 (in a '41 Barb) where the hammer hits the metal. Russia runs out of territory to trade to live through a long JA42 and a long SO42 and has to choose fighting terrain. The relative force ratio is at its peak point in favour of the Axis. The shape of the Russian army going into ND42 is rather indicative of the remainder of the East Front.

p.s.: Study the Russian rail net and project what parts of it will be useable for you at what stages of Axis advance. Plan your factory rails accordingly. Don't have your oil trapped, a couple CPs in the Caspian Sea is not the worst decision.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by brian brian »

yes, Russian strategy in 39-41 is smart building strategy. Heavy Bombers and PARAs aren't that handy for trading in Infantry for one more impulse of rail connection to a vital factory. building the early light/medium bombers aren't that useful either - the Panzers just tend to overrun their bases after they fly. Only in 1941 do the Russian FTR designers start getting their dermo together and make a plane starting to be worth flying. Unfortunately there are so many Russian FTR designers competing for Stalin's attention that it takes a while to figure out the good designs; however the USSR shouldn't build an airplane until 1941 to try and get a few good FTRs. Russian air missions should be about keeping their best possible FTR cover over their precious HQ and ARMor reserves, which frequently have to man up out in the open and deploy to stop the Panzer spearheads before the horse-drawn German infantry can catch up from their tasks cleaning up the Left Behind "Hero Cities".

but eventually the Russians do have to turn and fight to the last peasant Snipers, one with a rifle, one with some bullets. where is that? The Caucasus, for one, and the approaches to Murmansk and Archangelsk. Though Lord General Alexander is a good choice to lead a very interesting un-historical BEF to help out up there.

I give this "Run Away, build conservatively and be the same in Foreign Policy" advice regularly and people ignore it. 1941 Barbarossa is one of the most powerful Axis strategies (particularly against a Russian player bent on adventures outside of the Western Military Districts) but as it was the historical strategy, many Axis players want to explore something else instead.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by jjdenver »

Good advice. It sounds like you are saying take Bessarabia then sit still until 41 with the Soviets if Germany doesn't go for Sealion or Spain?

I assume if Barb 41 is in the offing there will be a JP DOW in summer 41 on SU to take Vlad + 4 resources? Does SU usually even defend against this or let the JP have it to focus on defending vs Germany?

Having Persia seems really useful for SU since they can use those resources prior to war w/ GE and even after war. Building one rail hex (which I think is possible in WIFCE) would connect Persian (and Baku) rail to the rest of SU.

What do you think of setting up heavy vs JP (to be ready if they DOW) and then building a para SO 39 (or not if not worth it but this seems almost necessary to take Tehran or have a good shot at it). Take Bessarabia SO 39, then DOW Persia in MJ 40. On the DOW impulse have CW land on the oil in the Persian Gulf to prevent JP from landing there. Then CW can put a couple of cp's in Persian Gulf and send the oil to SU. At least this way SU gets to use those resources for awhile and maybe build the rail link to the rest of SU so that if caucasus oil is cutoff it can still be used until captured.

I know this builds a para, wasting 5 BP but I think 3 oil per turn might already make up that deficit by MJ 41. Even in a Barb 41 scenario this seems efficient. If JP does DOW the SU, is it better to just give them the resources and take the forced peace in 40 or try to fall back slowly and rail units west as 40 comes to an end, finally giving them everything to Chita by MJ 41?

Btw, is there any way for SU to take these hexes from CW under WIFCE ruleset or will they remain CW forever because CW held them when Tehran fell?
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by Dabrion »

Japan DOW Russia in '41 is usually not too dangerous. Neither side has the capacities to wage a full blown war at this time, or rather the opportunity cost would be unreasonably high. Japan will usually bring barely enough force to take the 3 resources + Vlad and call it a day. Russia should defend the northern resource and the Chita area (with the reserves and some Cavs). Anything further east is in danger to get cut off from your rail net, essentially being stuck until the theatre rekindles (when Germany falls back to the Königsberg-Odessa line).

Teheran has 12factors defending (6 in MWiF since it is a clear hex).. you just need a decent force to take them out. HQ + 6 corps + divs + air should gain you a +14ish attack, no Paras required. There should be no time pressure in Persia. Also, Paras cannot reach Busheher from Russian staging hexes. Road in pacific scale mountain costs 7BP.. that seems completely irrational to me during a time where every single BP counts.

If CW wants to land on the oil hexes they have to DoW Persia too. You know that everytime a USE chit is lost a kitten dies.. right? (Hex control only changes by opponents walking in, first conquest or liberation.)

You can just do Finnland and Bessarabia and have a far better economic gain that the Persian oil, since you gain a resource back that is taken from Germany for each of them! And there is no risk to strengthen Japan. Worst case you get a shot at the Finns or the Rumanian oil.. Persia can be opened for the LL and the oil after the US is in the war.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by jjdenver »

Thanks, I've been counseled by most not to go after Finland, that it's difficult to attack them and Germans will ship in cheap peacekeeper defenders. When and how do you recommend attacking Finland? (in detail pls lay out how a 39 attack looks and how a 40 attack looks and when it should be done (which month). I saw another thread discussing this but I think the descriptions were not detailed enough to draw a good picture of it.

Oh, and great point about the 7 bp for a rail - I didn't know it was so expensive.

Once US is in how do you attack Persia? It seems hard to think that SU will have units to spare for this while battling Germany in 41 and 42?

As for SU getting a +14 on Tehran I'm not sure how it's done. We are playing WIFCE rules and WIFFE counters+maps. Even with 6 corps adjacent (which will take some time since SU doesn't have enough fast moving corps to get there without flipping unless it can pull everything off the JP border and builds another fast ARM/MECH and definitely not enough 4 move divs to do it - they have only 1 + the ski div that I can find. Say they can spend a couple of turns getting 6 corps + 3 divs in position for about 11-12 per hex. That is about let' say 35 attack + about 15 air = 50:12 = +8 and if a unit is flipped +10. If you flip Timoshenko to get him adjacent that's another +1 and if you put the ENG on him that's +12 I think. I'm not sure they even have enough air to flip a unit and still provide +15 air support though. And doing it this way will take 2-3 turns which gives JP plenty of time to move into Persian oil. It will also require I think 2 HQ's: Timoshenko from north and another HQ (Zhukov) from east to provide supply to the hex east of Tehran. Doing it with a para + 12 factors from 1 hex to get a 32:6 (with air) on first impulse before the MIL is deployed is +11 or 12 and it's done in one turn.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by paulderynck »

The key to Finland is to have your TRS in Leningrad and be able to make a 3 DIV invasion somewhere in the Surprise Impulse. If you set it up right, the Axis will likely concede the borderlands.

Also it helps to wait until Germany is in the middle of attacking France.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Then CW can put a couple of cp's in Persian Gulf and send the oil to SU. At least this way SU gets to use those resources for awhile and maybe build the rail link to the rest of SU so that if caucasus oil is cutoff it can still be used until captured.
MWiF doesn't have the build a road feature. Also CW cannot lend to Russia until both are at war with Germany. And if Russia conquers Persia without Japanese intervention, CW CPs cannot ship the oil until both are at war with Russia. (This is from the 2008 Errata which MWiF does have coded into it.)
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by brian brian »

Option 19 is handy for the Russians to both save an oil every turn, and maximize BP production with the .5 multiple every turn, regardless of the current resource total sent to Germany. Some turns the Russians can do both without one resource coming in from the West.

"to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany)"

Russia can use CPs in more places than one would expect at set-up; ultimately building a few in the Caspian Sea can prove quite prescient.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by Dabrion »

ORIGINAL: jjdenver
Thanks, I've been counseled by most not to go after Finland, that it's difficult to attack them and Germans will ship in cheap peacekeeper defenders. When and how do you recommend attacking Finland? (in detail pls lay out how a 39 attack looks and how a 40 attack looks and when it should be done (which month). I saw another thread discussing this but I think the descriptions were not detailed enough to draw a good picture of it.
If Germany decides to call your hand and ships in units, then you haven't deterred correctly or they are being irrational. Either way.. it is your duty to be prepared for the worst and to execute on your threats, Comrade!
You can start with Bessarabia and do Finland in summer '40, yet Finland gains +1 corps +1 fighter in '40, which significantly upgrades their defenses and gives another pilot to Germany. They only setup 3 corps, 1 ski and 1 bomber in '39. Putting pressure on multiple hexes guarantees they will have at least one weak spot or single units on all hexes.

In SO39 you rail Zhukov and the Siberians to Murmansk and Lappland (requires a 4 impulse SO39) and setup like this for ND39:
Murmansk: 2x INF(sib), Gun, 2x bombers(tac 2+, non-ext), Tupolev
Lappland: Zhuki, INF(sib), INF, Gun
E1849: Timo, CAV
Leningrad: MECH, INF, Eng, other bomber
Oranienbaum: GAR, Inf, Gun, FTR
Image

Then you hope ND39 starts with fine/rain in the arctic (40%). Snow denies the invasion, but still works if you are guaranteed a second impulse. In St(10%) and B(20%) I would delay. If you DoW in Rain, Germany will roll new weather after you, with a 50% for iced-in port. That would mean his lift would be tackled face down in Finlands ports.
The setup provides: 1) 6-8 dice ground strike @1s, and a decent blitz vs Petsamo, 2) CAV can run into the Borderland woods offmap hex and be reorged to run further, 3) you can blitz a stack adjacent Leningrad or move on Helsinki and 4) the CA can invade a div to Hango or Turku to deny a port. Germany will be in the process of finishing Poland or walking westward. Likely corps to encounter are the Kiel/Königsberg MIL or the MTN.
It will cost Germany a corps or two, a fighter for the Baltic and the need to do a combined in response and then every so often to keep them supplies (cutting into the rail move budget). CW/FR should consider a smal cruiser force and/or planes to the Baltic to tackle that FTR there.
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
Once US is in how do you attack Persia? It seems hard to think that SU will have units to spare for this while battling Germany in 41 and 42?
Basically just like you explained it already. Your tactical routes are alright, you just want to do stuff at the wrong time or in the wrong geo-strategic context. After Operation Octopus Japan will be rather busy expanding and defending their new Empire. They wont have a strategic reserve for your Persian Adventure anymore, besides they would have to actively defend a remote convoy line against raiders. Russia will want to have a dedicated Caucasus defense force unrelated to the front line. Enough dudes to defend Grozny and the passes in the Caucasus (exfil'ed via Crimea once/before the Dnjepr breaks). You need them as a quick reaction force to take out Persia/Iraq when Suez falls anyways, these assets should be earmarked. CW can help too and secure the oil with divs and LL if there is a threat from Japan.
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
As for SU getting a +14 on Tehran I'm not sure how it's done. We are playing WIFCE rules and WIFFE counters+maps. Even with 6 corps adjacent (which will take some time since SU doesn't have enough fast moving corps to get there without flipping unless it can pull everything off the JP border and builds another fast ARM/MECH and definitely not enough 4 move divs to do it - they have only 1 + the ski div that I can find. Say they can spend a couple of turns getting 6 corps + 3 divs in position for about 11-12 per hex. That is about let' say 35 attack + about 15 air = 50:12 = +8 and if a unit is flipped +10. If you flip Timoshenko to get him adjacent that's another +1 and if you put the ENG on him that's +12 I think. I'm not sure they even have enough air to flip a unit and still provide +15 air support though. And doing it this way will take 2-3 turns which gives JP plenty of time to move into Persian oil. It will also require I think 2 HQ's: Timoshenko from north and another HQ (Zhukov) from east to provide supply to the hex east of Tehran. Doing it with a para + 12 factors from 1 hex to get a 32:6 (with air) on first impulse before the MIL is deployed is +11 or 12 and it's done in one turn.
At first, I think you are missing the notional and the para bonus in your Teheran attack calculation. it should be: 32v8 (3 CAV, notional: 1 +1city -1surprise, doubled in mountains) = +8odds +1flips +1para = +10 attack +flips.
Close enough to not change the decision making I guess.. just be clear that this attack can cost you up to 10bp (PARA, INF Inf), what is the follow up strategy should that happen? Because your remaining force cannot confront Teheran anymore, not to speak of the possible Japanese that has one more turn to be prepared now.
If it works you are a genius, if not .. well then not ;)

Eng and HQs dont give a bonus vs cities in RAW8. Eng work vs factory stacks though.

You start by taking the rail through Tabiz (Cav div), you should be able to rail in the slow assets the second impulse and be ready for attack the moment the weather is favorable the turn after that.

3hex are about 30factors, 8 from Zhukov, 12 air makes 50factors.
50v12 = +8.3odds +2.5hq = 10,8 (72%,68%) +flips 1:(85%/45%)|2:(94%/24%). I would bring a Gun or two for flips, they are valuable to secure the Banners! (chances are: % to vacate hex, % attacker loss)

If you have at least one flip in Teheran, you can throw in the PARA without thinking twice:
54v16 = +6.7odds +2.5hq +1flip +1para = 11,2 (79%/57%) +flips 1:(90%/33%)|2:(97%/17%).

Fighting vs 2 units has better chances for a decent Banner. Doing Persia before you are active denies a place where you can easily convert one of those 4-3 INF to a 10-3 Banner. They rail in as boys .. then they rail out as combat robots.. pew pew..
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by jjdenver »

Dabrion, that was a fantastic response along with the other posts above thanks guys. One problem is that we are using the arctic map so those off map hexes aren't used in our game. How would that change your Finland strat?

Also why would Germany need a FTR for the baltic and a combined? Are you saying that Britain will be flying bombers into the Baltic to try to cut supply? Those cp's in the Baltic are hard to take out and are used for Swedish resources so are a nice target regardless of whether Germany is in Finland or not....but hard to kill since GE will usually leave a 5 range FTR able to react into Baltic and cover Kiel/Hamburg. Is there some way the Soviets can attack those cp's? I think not right since they are German units at sea and not peacekeepers in Finland. Sorry I'm confused about the context here.

I also want to get into a little more detail about how the attack on Persia might work. For a cav to walk along the rail (1 hex euro map + tabriz + 2 more rail hexes to Baghdad) will take 3 impulses. Then only 1 corp + 1 div could rail in on 4th impulse due to stacking then 5th impulse cav moves out and another corp can rail in. That gives you 3 units along the Caspian in the hex NW of Tehran assuming they walked into that hex. 3 units in the hex W of Tehran (I assume this will be Zhukov?) where the rail is, and the cav that walked in in the hex SW of Tehran. I guess in the hex NW of Tehran we might have 11 factors (5-4, 5-4, 1-4 infdiv), in hex W of Tehran 15 factors (Zhukov, 5-3, 2-3), and a 2-5 cav in the hex SW of Tehran makes 28 factors. I don't see any way to get units in the hex E of Tehran in supply since that would require an HQ (not port or Soviet city close enough) and I guess this is already a big commitment while Germany is across the Dniepr.

So on turn 1 we use 5 impulses to get all of this in position and on turn 2 we attack. The MIL will have turned face up after being placed fd on turn 1.

28 + 4 para + 12 air = 44:12 = +7.3 +1 para +2.5 for Zhukov HQ commit = +10.8. We'd need to roll an 8 or 9 + 10.8 to get a 19 on 2d10 asslt table which kills 2 units so there is a pretty good chance of getting stuffed and it's easy to lose 2 or 3 units in this first attack which might need a follow-up attack.

If you bring an art or 2 to get flips that 2 units not in the attack (2-3 div, 1-4 div) that can't take losses if you lose 2 or 3 and also reduces your attack odds because those guns have to stack on your attack hexes where the divs would have been helping in the attack. I think better to use your air to get the flips probably so you can have the divs to take losses.

It seems like my example is not as good as yours so I'm not sure if I'm missing some trick. We are using the rule that requires a port or HQ to get supply off the coast (amphib rule I think is the one).

Also, let me walk through how you would set up this whole thing. You might have the 2-5 cav already sitting next to Persia when Germany attacks and the 5-4,5-4,1-4 sitting on the Persian border next to Baku. Then you'd have Zhukov far enough back from Dnieper that he won't get flipped and a 5-3 and 2-3infdiv on south end of your Dnieper defense hoping they can avoid getting flipped or attacked and be able to move onto Kerch and then not be in a zoc and be able to rail to Persia? That's a bit tricky since Germans have fast units that may well ZOC your guys moving into Crimea. This is also not mentioning that during this turn MJ 41 you are frantically railing blue factories away from the Germans so rail moves are at an all time premium. You'd also want to have about 4 good bombers (2xSTR4, 2xLND3) face up and available air missions to rebase them into Baku and the hex on the Persian border that is clear where they can base.

This is really a big ask when you are staring down the barrel of a summer 41 German blitzkrieg. Pulling Zhukov out of the line is going to hurt along with all that air that's so useful for screwing up German odds when they are struggling to keep their FTRs face up and at the front lines to intercept.

It seems like a major operation to mount (zhukov + 4 air + 6 ground units) away from the German front for 3 turns (1 to get into position, 1 to make the attack, 1 to rail back). Is this really feasible? I guess if you are going to leave 5-3, 5-4, 5-4, 1-4, 2-3 to defend the caucasus oil that's a little better since you seem to imply that you will detach them and leave them set up in caucasus mountains to defend vs Axis.

Also when this happens (MJ 41 rail in JA 41 execute attack SO 41 rail back) is probably exactly when JP will have time to land troops into Persia and be at war with SU because they would normally I assume use this time to attack Vladivostok and grab some resources from the SU while SU is distracted with Germany. So JP would really love to have Persian oil become available right when it goes to war with SU and the CW isn't at war yet to get in the way of JP units sailing through the Arabian Sea. This just seems really hard to pull off?

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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by TeaLeaf »

As Russia, I always say that Germany can kill me, Japan cannot.
Japan can be annoying, but even if I loose everything to them in Asia, I can still be strong enough against Germany (with a little help from the west). Plus, if Japan took everything from me in Asia, China is much safer. If they took my factory and resources after China died, it should be late enough in the game to not matter much to Russia anyway.

So, with Russia it is an absolute must to build up in Europe.
Always build all your land units and lots of fighter planes as well. I know this is hard, so just build almost all land units before Germany attacks. Plus a couple of fighters as well, if you can. And keep them in Europe. Even strip Asia bare of land and air units. Position them against Adolf.

Strip Asia bare?
Yes. As said, Japan cannot kill you, but Germany absolutely can. You need everything, save a bare few land units in Vladi to prevent a too easy a walk over. However, how you do it is quite important.
Personally, I like to set up in Asia and gradually rail back to Europe (so don't set up too much around Vladiwostok because if the railways are cut those troops cannot rail out). It doesn't really matter what Japan does. Russia will need those units in Europe by '41. Japan either ignores you (muchos danger to China) or matches your setup or overpowers it. If they follow up by attacking you once you start railing back, you most likely saved China at the cost of a few Russian resources and a factory. If they also scale down, China at least had a short period of relief...
So if Japan wants to kill China, Russia does nothing to prevent that? In my book yes indeed. Russia cannot prevent China from dying while also preventing Adolf from killing Russia! Maybe if Germany goes Africa, but then the Russians are needed to weaken Germany against the CW, so I would have a hard time staying in Asia early to mid-war.

Persia depends on the situation. If Barbarossa is happening, I like to align (or attack) Persia/Iraq to the CW. If Adolf went for Gibraltar, Russia is my chosen MP to align/attack Persia. I have some good results with aligning Persia if the Axis attack it. If they don't, I attack it myself (mid-game).

Bessarabia and Finland I'm not sure it matters a lot in which order you do it, but whatever you do, do them in strength. Finland requires invaders and/or paradroppers and enough land units to attack from multiple positions. Make sure you can prevent Germany from lapsing the war so you can conquer Finland if your claims are turned down. Romania just needs a lot of Russian forces on the border and your claim will be granted.
I'm not sure either or both are an absolute must (I've never seen a game without) but they are at least fun to do and give you the feeling you are doing something.

Even if Germany goes for Gibraltar, Russia will need (almost) all their army of land units and some aircraft against Germany, because otherwise Germans and Italians will run rampant in the Med, North Africa and will attack you once they feel safe there.
Last game, Germany and Italy were obviously going for Gibraltar and Africa and the Middle East, Russia placed almost all its units along their common borders with Germany and placed their chits offensively. It was quite easy to attack Germany in J/F '41 (even without the option making it easy to break the Nazi-Soviet pact in '41), ultimately liberating Poland shortly after.

Even if Germany can prevent Russia from attacking in '41, their attacks against Winnie (wherever that be) just lost a quite some teeth and the Russian build-up along the German borders served its purpose well. Winnie has a much better chance to stay in control of at least Suez.
If Germany breaks off and comes after you, halfway into their Africa-campaign, my guess is they cannot seriously harm you before '41 is almost over, but you will be stuck in the forward defense. Which should not be a problem, as Germany is weaker (suboptimal preparations for Barbarossa), attacks later, and if Russia historically could survive it, it ceratinly can in WiF!

My two cents ;-).
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by jjdenver »

Thanks Tealeaf. One question, you mention aligning Persia if Axis attack it. I think GE can align Persia simply by getting 4 units into a country next to it and the same with Iraq. So they put 4 units in Syria, align Iraq then march 4 units into Iraq and align Persia. There is almost never an Axis attack on Persia I'd guess.

Also you mention CW attacking Persia if GE goes Barb 41. Is this feasible? Are you saying in 41 CW lands in the south and then marches up to Tehran? If Persia sets up its starting cav in Bandar Shapur, I don't see how CW can do this very easily. They can land next door in Bushehr (the port with no rail line) but there is an alpine hexside. Brit HQ landing will flip facedown when it lands due to 4 cost of mountain on asia map. Next turn it will flip face up but the MIL from Tehran will quite possibly be railed into Bandar Shapur putting 12 defense there only being attacked from 1 hex by the Brits. That's a tough attack even with shore bombardment. Is this how you do it? CW can't move inland due to the alpine hexside I guess. Although maybe if they can preposition a para and some LND3's somewhere nearby it gets easier but still the chance of losing all 3 landing units incl the HQ is a real possibility.

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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by TeaLeaf »

Hi jj,

A note in advance: the map from MWiF looks a bit different from your screenshot. Teheran is not in the mountains, for example (a bit easier to PARAdrop ;-).

I have seen Japan attacking Persia and since Germany was fighting in the Med after taking Gibraltar, Russia aligned Persia (Russia DOWed Germany J/F '41). Also, CW based the bulk of the RN (with lots of subs) in Aden, Diego Suarez and the Seychelles, so Japan was really sweating in regard of keeping its units in Persia in supply.

But you are right ofc, Germany could align it. I just never saw that happen ;-). I just haven't seen Italy/Germany have the guts to debark land units in Syria, who will be put out of supply the impulse after and be dealt with later. Note: I play with limited overseas supply and isolated reorganization limits (I play as-if that option can be selected).
Let's assume Germany aligns it. In that case there is 1 Persian CAV defending (in MWiF, Persia only has 1 CAV, plus 1 res that comes into play next turn). Quite easy to dispose of.

Regarding the CW attacking Persia, Not very hard either. I did it quite often but I admit it takes some planning ahead you need to get used to.
First of all you need a long range ATR with a PARA. Also 1 or 2 (better) reasonable LND with sufficient range. Now Persia can only set up in Teheran. And you need a few fast moving units coming in from Bandar Shapur and/or from Lake Urmia if you have 2HQ's to spare.
Remember, if Germany goes Barb, the entire med should be CW for sure. There is no hurry to attack Persia in '41. It can be done in '42 as well. Unless, perhaps, Japan attacks it first and Russia is hard pressed to survive Barbarossa! Russia has the most easy time reinforcing Persia, if it has the troops to spare (not likely during a German campaign in Russia), but I guess if CW preparartions to attack Persia are well underway and en par with Japanese build up CW could sucessfully align Persia as well. Keeping its units in Persia in supply usually is much more a nightmare for Japan than for the CW.
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by TeaLeaf »

Persia/Iraq in MWiF.
Para, ATR + 1 or 2 LND base in Bagdad. HQ + INF + DIV invade Shapur, HQ + fast ARM roll in 2 hexes south of Lake Urmia -> 2 pronged race and attack towards Persia.
If Germany is campaigning in Russia, CW only has 3 important dates to keep in mind to plan for: landings in Africa '42, landing in Italy '43, landing in 'Normandy' '44. In the meantime CW can strike overseas where and when she desires. Ofc, she also needs to defend against German subs and any Japanese aggression further west than Burma.

Ah, well, one cannot cover everything on beforehand ;-)

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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by Dabrion »

JJ, with the Scandinavia map you are basically playing a different game with Finland. I never play the extra maps, but I remember them to be pro-axis on a ridiculous level. They get voted out on a regular basis at the con and in my gaming groups. I concur with leaving them alone in '39 in that case, and would set up for Bessarabia instead and stage for a Finland claim in MA40 before France falls. But with the ton of extra border hexes it will be hard to impossible to prevent them from being adventurous on Russian soil if they so choose.

You also play the old maps, I am used to the CE maps. You can get a low res scan of the new maps on the ADG download site: here

I think you focusing too much on Persia. There is no strategic necessity to do Persia, until the Axis is threatening the middle-east alignment chain, has taken the arctic LL ports or you are in dire need of the Indian LL. They trade an oil to CW.. and you only gain one oil that is economically valuable for Russia (essentially taken from CW, a zero sum trade, not including the potential 3oil swing for japan). Neutral MP may only save one oil per turn as well.

To further Russia's economic situation and have a possible shot at German allies, go after Finland and Rumania!


CW has no business in Persia, they get oil from them and they will get credit for the objective if it stays neutral.
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
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RE: SU strategy in 39/40/41 (Bessarabia, Finland, Persia, Japan)

Post by brian brian »

I think in 1939 as the Germans I might call Stalin's bluff and force the DOW. It would be a drag to not have the Finnish front later, but the Kriegsmarine AMPH can likely re-open that front and possibly liberate Finland eventually.

. The entry chits can be pretty high in the first few turns ... Stalin might want to send an Envoy to FDR for an opinion on this matter. Keep in mind that WiF is really designed as a multi-player game.

It is near-impossible for players new to the game to do nothing - instead counter-attacking with the French, sending the Russians all over the map, never retreating the Chinese, because doing nothing is boring and who wants to be bored playing a game?

If my Axis minions were invading Russia in the summer of 41 and the Allied response was to attack Persia, I would be quite pleased. There are two kinds of Initiative in the game - the side granted that title at the start of each turn, and the strategic reality around the world. I suggest not confusing the two.
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