God of War: Why such loss of air asset?

[mikkey]

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo
... BYW, peeling the onion is not a tutorial.

ballyhoo, I suppose that ultradave thought fifth tutorial scenario from Gunner98's Strike Tutorials campaign and not "Peeling the Onion, 1957" from the Community Scenario Pack, which is really not a tutorial.

[ultradave]

Yeah, I don't even have that one in my community scenarios. Haven't downloaded an update in a little bit since I've been having fun with Northern Inferno.

[thewood1]

"Jury isn't in yet but I'm starting to get a little suspicious the OP is taking all of us for a bit of a ride."

Again, I pointed this out in the first two threads the OP started a month or two ago and and was taken to task for it.

[mikmykWS]

Yes. Aware of that and all I can say is our patience for different posting styles is different. Must be a north shore/south shore thing. [:)] The OP gets my benefit of the doubt for now.

I am though starting to wonder if some of the toads are creating bogus accounts again. I don't think this one is one of them.

Mike

[thewood1]

I hate the south shore. You guys never pay tolls.

[spinecruncher]

So am I right or wrong about peeling da onion? Bc I do not see any tutorial text. Also, any comments on hat I was asking about SAM /AA strikes? Do I want a pre-land-strike campaign that focuses on AA/SAMS -- to soften up the defenses prior to the major offensive? Isn't this typical of modern fighting? I remember in '92 operation Desert Storm there was an intensive campaign for a day or so, maybe longer, that only focused on weakening the enemies defenses. Now if a scenario only lasts a day or so, I guess this changes things.

And also just curios: why would anyone go to the lengths of learning a game to post without authenticity?

[ultradave]

There's a Community Scenario Peeling the Onion, and there is Strike Tutorial #5 Peeling the Onion. I'm not sure what more you are looking for as I posted the scenario briefing. It's there.

[spinecruncher]

It is just that I do not see the tutorial of that title in my tutorial folder is all. I hope that does not make me a toad.

[spinecruncher]

"In this case, Vietnam's best assets are their newer SAMS and fighters (Flankers) so starting a few ops against them will help you carry out strikes elsewhere as they'll minimize the overall threat. You also have a fair bit of time so you don't really have to wipe everything at once but can take things down piecemeal. Please look at your OOB as well. You have a few aces in the whole including cruise and ballistic missiles to help you. "

Ok thank you!

[ultradave]

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

It is just that I do not see the tutorial of that title in my tutorial folder is all. I hope that does not make me a toad.

We had this discussion before. They are here, and I recommended them as good tutorials to do before taking on the game's air tutorial, which is a handful:

tm.asp?m=4299665

You should download and add to your tutorial folder.

[spinecruncher]

I just realized a huge issue I think I am having is not checking the load-outs for the mission. For example using Mighty Dragon with the some of the scenario load-outs do not provide the right ordinance for land strike, etc.

[Tailhook]

Any complex scenario I do is done in 3 phases, this one being no different. It changes a little if I'm initially offensive (ex this scenario) or defensive (Don of a New Era)

1) Break their Air Force
2) Crack the IADS
3) Destroy your objectives.

Step 1 should be ideally done where you have the advantage or at least they don't have an advantage. For a CSG this would be far enough away so your ships aren't accidentally detected, but close enough where you're not in their SAM range and/or fuel limited with your jets. The same applies for airbase with the caveat you don't need to worry about detection. This step can often require baiting the enemies CAP.

Done properly, the IADS is behind the enemies fighters so you aren't trying to fight both at once. With the sky starting to clear, switch some multi-roles to SEAD and DEAD loadouts and begin to press, always maintaining a backup CAP. If you have cruise missiles, now is the time to use them to bust open the same. Remember that a SAM battery doesnt need to be completely wiped out to be removed as a threat. Take out any radar (FCR and search) and most sites are now totally harmless, even if they have a half dozen TELs left.

With an ever expanding hole carved into his defenses, send in your strike packages. It's absolutely crucial you check each target to make sure you're only going after objectives or things that make sense (bombing runway/access points and/or parked aircraft = good. Empty tarmac, passenger terminals = bad). Make sure you go over your ordnance available and allocate it and aircraft appropriately. Sending 8 jets to bomb a bunker is wasteful when one with a penetrate can do the job.

I don't start the next step until I'm (arbitrarily) ~75% done with the previous step, although time allotted for scenario and my own OOB can accelerate or desperate this. For example, there's a scenario (on my phone so can't look up) where you have to soften up Hainan before a B-2 raid, and you're only given enough time for one, maybe two strikes to do all 3 steps, so you're going to have a very mixed set of aircraft in the air doing multiple things at once.

This scenario is nice in that despite the Flankers and (few) modern SAMs the Vietnamese have, you overwhelmingly outmatch them, plus you initiate the attack. This will let you be more aggressive, but you should challenge yourself to not waste any assets.

[mikmykWS]

Wish this forum had a like function as Tailhook's post hits the nail on the head.

[ZoroastroBR]

Well said. Just remember about phase 0 (before you start the scenario) where you need to see your order of battle, where your forces are located, which and how much ordinances you have in stores. Knowing where enemy forces are, and from where they will be coming helps a lot too.

[spinecruncher]

Tail, I just wanted to point out my appreciation to your helpful post. Regarding phase 1, certainly I exclude Civ terminals and structures like that, but the tarmacs and runways, versus SAM and AA units? I hold the latter two off for phase two bc in phase one I wanted to wipe out the air defenses and there are too many targets on runways and tarmacs. So I am not sure whether I was looking at that correctly or not. Moreover I am just trying to learn the doctrine that protects phase 1 land strikes from getting devastated. Perhaps defining a CAP zone around the phase 1 target area is a good way to go. Certainly appropriating a healthy escort squadron is necessary. But moreover I just watch my Vigorous dragons go in, see all the vampires coming in after them and all hell break lose. I am still learning, what can i say.

[Cik]

ORIGINAL: Tailhook

Any complex scenario I do is done in 3 phases, this one being no different. It changes a little if I'm initially offensive (ex this scenario) or defensive (Don of a New Era)

1) Break their Air Force
2) Crack the IADS
3) Destroy your objectives.

Step 1 should be ideally done where you have the advantage or at least they don't have an advantage. For a CSG this would be far enough away so your ships aren't accidentally detected, but close enough where you're not in their SAM range and/or fuel limited with your jets. The same applies for airbase with the caveat you don't need to worry about detection. This step can often require baiting the enemies CAP.

Done properly, the IADS is behind the enemies fighters so you aren't trying to fight both at once. With the sky starting to clear, switch some multi-roles to SEAD and DEAD loadouts and begin to press, always maintaining a backup CAP. If you have cruise missiles, now is the time to use them to bust open the same. Remember that a SAM battery doesnt need to be completely wiped out to be removed as a threat. Take out any radar (FCR and search) and most sites are now totally harmless, even if they have a half dozen TELs left.

With an ever expanding hole carved into his defenses, send in your strike packages. It's absolutely crucial you check each target to make sure you're only going after objectives or things that make sense (bombing runway/access points and/or parked aircraft = good. Empty tarmac, passenger terminals = bad). Make sure you go over your ordnance available and allocate it and aircraft appropriately. Sending 8 jets to bomb a bunker is wasteful when one with a penetrate can do the job.

I don't start the next step until I'm (arbitrarily) ~75% done with the previous step, although time allotted for scenario and my own OOB can accelerate or desperate this. For example, there's a scenario (on my phone so can't look up) where you have to soften up Hainan before a B-2 raid, and you're only given enough time for one, maybe two strikes to do all 3 steps, so you're going to have a very mixed set of aircraft in the air doing multiple things at once.

This scenario is nice in that despite the Flankers and (few) modern SAMs the Vietnamese have, you overwhelmingly outmatch them, plus you initiate the attack. This will let you be more aggressive, but you should challenge yourself to not waste any assets.

keep in mind though that these phases can shift quite a bit, depending on how the enemy is armed and arrayed. if you have standoff SEAD and good air control/surveillance you can often attack both the IADS and the air force at the same time- and the game rewards you for doing so as the earlier your first sorties go winchester the earlier they will come back up again.

[Tailhook]

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

Tail, I just wanted to point out my appreciation to your helpful post. Regarding phase 1, certainly I exclude Civ terminals and structures like that, but the tarmacs and runways, versus SAM and AA units? I hold the latter two off for phase two bc in phase one I wanted to wipe out the air defenses and there are too many targets on runways and tarmacs. So I am not sure whether I was looking at that correctly or not. Moreover I am just trying to learn the doctrine that protects phase 1 land strikes from getting devastated. Perhaps defining a CAP zone around the phase 1 target area is a good way to go. Certainly appropriating a healthy escort squadron is necessary. But moreover I just watch my Vigorous dragons go in, see all the vampires coming in after them and all hell break lose. I am still learning, what can i say.

I don't think you're following what I mean. Conducted purely, Phase 1 ONLY attacks airborne air targets and their reinforcements. Phase 2 ONLY attacks SAM and radar sites. Phase 3 ONLY attacks ground targets/objectives.

A Phase 1 land strike is a very complicated affair because you have to dedicate a sizeable force of fighters to escort strikers, sending them into an intact air defense network and leaving your other fighter screen more capable of being overwhelmed. Hence it's not a good idea unless you can really plan it out (it honestly doesn't sound like you are familiar enough with the game to conduct phase 1 strikes). The exception is with cruise missiles because they have the range to attack off axis and are low, and you often have a large quantity.

In a practical sense, you won't really be ONLY attacking air, then SAMs, then ground targets, but that's a good order for where your focus should be. Don't try and launch strike packages you can't afford to. A phase 1 Land Strike can easily require 2 dozen aircraft when you factor in SEAD and CAP escort. Very few scenarios is it worth the hassle when you can thin the heard and make it easier later.

The default Air tutorial actually has a pretty good explanation and breakdown of this style of attack. You have to clear the air with your F-14s, then use your SEAD aircraft to take out the two SAMs, then finish up with an A-6 bombing raid. That's the exact order you should try and tackle missions.




I have attached a scenario to teach you these concepts. Note that patrol zones for Phase 1 and Support are initialized. I'm copying this description into the "Side Briefing" which can be accessed from the "Game" tab in the top menu.

I have 24 multirole jets at NAS North Island with good BVR missiles, anti radiation missiles, but no standoff munitions (besides LGB/JDAM). My target is a command bunker guarded by 1 long range semi-fixed SAM (call it an SA-10 that won't move), a medium range SAM (SA-6), and a close in SAM (SA-8). There's also an enemy airbase (Luke AFB) with an unknown number of Air Superiority and Ground attack aircraft that are of inferior but respectable quality. I have an AWACS orbit in support that can detect the SAM emissions as well as enemy aircraft. I also have a Tanker orbit, a ground based radar, and 3 Jamming aircraft to help with SEAD.

*****PHASE 1*****
20 multirole jets equipped with BVR anti-air loadouts, assigned to a rectangular patrol zone that is between 100 and 150 nm from my base, on the axis of most probable attack while remaining clear of the known SA-10 site maximum range, as well as probable scramble range for close in interceptors at the airfield. F/A-18s with their higher loadout operate closer to the enemy, with F-16s in the next line back. Use these forces to knock out any aircraft that the AWACS detects, but make sure they don't wander into the SAM range or you may lose them! You should have no problems dealing with the enemies CAP fighters as well as any attacks he sends your way.

This phase is already set up for you and largely automated, just use it as an example to see how I would arrange my defense in this situation.

*****PHASE 2*****
After the first round of fighters (Most likely your F/A-18 Patrols) expend their ordnance, they will return to base. You already have 4 F/A-18s set up for SEAD with HARM missiles and Cluster bombs. Equip at least another 4 aircraft (either F-18 or F-16) with HARMs and/or CBUs. Select each deployed SAM site and assign a strike mission to it. The biggest threat is the SA-10, the SA-6, and don't forget the lone Early Warning radar on a hill giving the enemy locations of your forces. Take note of the last SAM, the SA-8. Although the SA-8 is emitting, you don't actually need to kill it with anti-radiation missiles. Instead, laser guided bombs dropped at max range and altitude will keep your launching aircraft out of harms way. For this reason, we'll deal with it in Phase 3.

For the actual strike on the SAM sites I like to use a Land Strike mission instead of a SEAD patrol, because we know where all of them are and this will also let us easily assign an E/A-6B Prowler to ride shotgun as Jamming support if you designate it as an Escort on the mission. With jamming, the SA-10 and SA-6 will likely have a hard time shooting down your missiles, but they still can. As such, you'll probably need to fire more HARMs then you think (with experience in the game you'll learn how many each system usually takes, and how effective jamming is). The EW site won't be able to defend itself with the SA-10 neutralized, so a single HARM should do the job, provided it doesn't malfunction. Remember that jammers are most effective if the jamming aircraft is pointed directly at or away from the target you're trying to jam, and the closer the jammer gets the more effective it is (up to a point where the enemy radar will "burn through" the jamming.

You can assign fighters as escorts for your SEAD strike missions, but you probably won't need to because the max range of the HARM will actually have them firing from behind your CAP, if it's still up.

*****PHASE 3*****
It should become apparent at some point when you've "won" the air war against his airborne aircraft. You will be able to tell because the amount of aircraft he can throw at you, which was initially quite a few, should really have thinned out or stopped completely. As the incoming aircraft stop, and your shooters return to land, switch some of them up for air to ground loadouts. I gave you a lot (probably too many) options, but the aircraft I gave you are very flexible and thus have a lot of options. Stick with GBUs for now, either laser or GPS. Your primary target is an underground command bunker. As it's underground, you'll need to use penetrating warheads. Fortunately, the GBU-31 has a penetrator warhead in the BLU-109. You can always double check the warhead type by scrolling down to "Warheads". Make sure that you have at least two aircraft equipped with penetrator bombs to take out the bunker. You'll also want to send a couple jets ahead of them to bomb the SA-8 site from range. It shouldn't affect you anyway, but it's better safe then sorry when dealing with a primary objective.

!!!!It's important to always keep some aircraft in the CAP mission, you never know what could happen!!!!

The rest of your aircraft that you don't task for the bunker strike or CAP can reload as they see fit. There are plenty of targets at Luke AFB (the enemy base) and it's good practice to neutralize a base, even if it's out of jets by now. When attacking an airbase you need to figure out the best way to remove the threat it's aircraft bring. Luke has 2 runways. If you take those out (you can't fully destroy them but with enough damage they will be unusable for a long time) his jets can't take off and the base is neutralized. Runways are tough targets though, and require either a lot of bombs (even smart ones), special purpose anti-runway weapons, or a handful of penetrator bombs. This base doesn't have one, but some airbases also have "Runway Grade Taxiways" that can serve as emergency runways as well. OR you can attack the 10 Runway access points. These are the taxiways that let jets use the runways. They aren't nearly as tough as runways (they too can't be destroyed but with enough damage are unusable) so you can sometimes get away with using fewer weapons by attacking these. You don't need to destroy the access points AND the runways, that's just a waste of munitions. Without one, the other (and the base) is useless. The third option is to attack parked aircraft. Your aircraft in this scenario have powerful targeting pods to let them observe the base from a distance and identify parked aircraft. Some scenarios may require specialized recon aircraft to do this. Occupied parking spots are marked with a yellow and black triangle in "unit" view mode. Note that you can only see aircraft in open parking. Shelters and Hangars will obscure them, so you can never be sure if they're occupied so you have to destroy all these if you want to be certain. Luke AFB isn't a great candidate for this type of attack because it has almost 200 weather shelters (it's an F-16 training base) so attacking all of them will consume a lot of time and weapons. Just note in other scenarios when you're attacking the enemy base if this method might be best. Cluster bombs work great against open tarmacs, though, because the aircraft are fragile and you can often hit multiple spaces. Keep that in mind if there are few hangars and a lot of aircraft parked outside.




This scenario and my description above should give you a good example of how to start on a typical, semi-complex scenario. You can easily expand the lessons here to "God of War"

[ultradave]

Awesome ^^^^^^^^

[Tailhook]

Please note I didn't bother with a scoring system, end conditions, a proper briefing, or anything particularly complex on AI plans. It's purely a demonstration of my philosophy. If someone wants to spruce it up, go for it.