Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

[Lucian]

I honestly never understood the criticism over the game's interface. Yes its pretty densely packed but then the game is quite intricately detailed and really requires that. I never thought it was overly cumbersome or really had any problems at all using it and once you get used to it, making gameplay decisions is fast and easy and all the information you need is only a click or two away. Like I said, I dont get it.

Same with all the font complaints. The font always seemed fine and easily readable to me so I never got all the hoo-haa about that either.

[Bingeling]

The font issue is about the UI not scaling. If you have a too high resolution compared to screen size and distance to it, the UI becomes tiny and unreadable. For instance, I just replaced my laptop, and on the new one, by default, windows zoomed the UI to 150%. That is on a 14" with normal full hd resolution.

As for the interface, I am used to it and have no issues, but it is not pretty. And it was not exactly top of the line back in 2010 either.

[SirHoraceHarkness]

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

race specific quests

I seem to be in the minority these days, but I despise this recent trend of adding quests to 4X games. For me, a 4X game should rely on emergent gameplay, not scripted gameplay. I should feel motivated to do X because it makes sense for me to do it, not because the game offers me a carrot to do it.

Depends on the implementation. In age of wonders: shadow magic which is a fantasy 4x the various magic classes each have a 'spirit' which you can build a shrine to and get a specific bonus along with quests which are offered with a reward for completion. These quests fit right in with the flow of the game like a quest to destroy or capture a certain magic node on the map or kill a group of npc which are of an opposing magic class that your spirit dislikes etc. So as long as its relevant to the game world and the quests are actually fun and rewarding then why not to add in some flavor on an increasingly stale genre.

[stuart3]

If DW2 follows DW1's practice of allowing players the option to enable or disable most options then everyone might get the sort of game they want re- quests.

[Falcon1]

I'll chime in on the side of those who say that some things on the screen can be very difficult to read. It's even discouraged me from playing sometimes.

[Cauldyth]

IMHO, it's a crutch, to avoid having to make the game mechanics themselves interesting and capable of driving the gameplay.

A good example is a game of DW I played a while back, where the Gizureans were running away with the game. They had almost reached the victory threshold, so it was just a matter of time. Looking down their victory conditions, I had to pick something to do to stop them. The only viable option was their "Keep your empire's Leader alive" condition. I had to throw everything I could at murdering their leader. Agents were sent to their homewold, fleets were amassed to assault their vastly superior forces, armies were assembled to launch a ground invasion. It would be a suicide mission for all involved, and the Gizurean counterattack would certainly annihilate them, but I only needed to capture the homeworld briefly to execute their Queen. Against all odds, however, one of my agents managed to assassinate her.

Crusader Kings 2 managed to make things like that a constant part of the gameplay. The player is always finding themselves doing things that, in other games, would be quest fodder - kill person X, convert province Y to your religion, get a strategic marriage to dynasty Z. But the player is doing those things because it makes sense to do them, not because the game told them to do it for some arbitrary reason, and promised to conjure up a shiny new trinket out of thin air as a reward.

But, as I said in my previous post, I realize I'm in the minority on this. [:(]

[Erik Rutins]

Well, for a species like the Gizureans you can see why that might be quite a blow. It seems to me that having a unique way to hurt one faction that would barely harm another is a good way to help make those factions distinct and define their character. I don't personally feel that endless quests are the basis of gameplay in this type of game. We used them for added flavor and interest and to drive the major storylines, which you could choose to have on or off. I do feel that emergent gameplay can create its own narrative, but story events can also be helpful and I know that some players certainly appreciate them. As with the original DW, we do want to cater to many possible playstyles as much as we can, so there will be lots of options.

I guess the main thing I can say is that when Elliot and I started working on DW2, we first sat down and had a long look at player feedback on DW1 and each part of the game. I read or re-read a lot of threads and posts. The comments and suggestions over time of DW fans here (and on our beta forum, and on Steam), have been read and taken into consideration. We do not have unlimited resources or unlimited time (no game does) so trade-offs are a fundamental part of this process - not all good ideas are feasible. Nevertheless, we are doing the best we can to improve the game in the most significant ways we can with the time and resources we have.

When we get to the point where we can share details, hopefully there will be no doubt that DW2 is better than DWU and many of the great games from our competitors that have released since the original DW.

Regards,

- Erik

[Cauldyth]

Ugh, I'm sorry, after reading your reply, I went back to re-read my post, and realized that it came across the exact opposite way that I intended. My example with the Gizureans was something I liked, as opposed to some pre-scripted things that happen in other games, like "Go kill character X and we'll give you 10,000 credits." DW gave me a legitimate reason to kill their Queen, it wasn't artificial.

[Hattori Hanzo]

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
Ugh, I'm sorry, after reading your reply, I went back to re-read my post, and realized that it came across the exact opposite way that I intended. My example with the Gizureans was something I liked, as opposed to some pre-scripted things that happen in other games, like "Go kill character X and we'll give you 10,000 credits." DW gave me a legitimate reason to kill their Queen, it wasn't artificial.

hello Cauldyth, when I have read for the first time your previous post it was really clear for me that you liked very much the whole "Gizureans Affaire" and that you mentioned it as a typical example of GREAT "emergent game-play" in DW1.

ps: I'm also under the impression that also Erik Rutkins has understand it as as he should [;)]

[tortugapower]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Thanks, it was a good listen overall and I appreciate the attention given to DW.

In the spirit of the podcast, I will also offer some comments. [:)]

<snip>

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks for the feedback, Erik.

I will try to respond to this as best as I can. A note about the podcast crew for this topic, but I find this manifest on the 4X subreddit and pretty much everywhere that people know about Distant Worlds. I'm going to highlight this point because I think it's very good to keep in mind:

Distant Worlds is an extremely polarizing topic for 4X gamers.

Why is this? I don't know. I think it's because DW can be so successful at doing things right, and at drawing people in. It's a very immersive, realistic-feeling game. And, besides Aurora 4X, most games draw more from a Masters of Orion type game (something more like Civilization in space), whereas Distant Worlds went a different (and very appealing) route.

I believe when people "bounce off" [don't like] Distant Worlds, they have a strong reaction to it for two reasons. (1) They probably see bits and pieces of unique gameplay that they really like, but still for whatever reason don't like [other parts of] the game, and that's frustrating. (2) They hear all the praise that Distant Worlds gets from other people, and this evokes a stronger response for them to the negative. (I'm not a sociologist, so I can only speculate that maybe #2 is related to the 'vocal minority' effect.)

The Interface

When people then dislike DW and are compelled to have a strong reaction against it, the reason why the interface is so maligned (to an unfair degree, I agree) is that it's an easy target. "I don't like this game, let me look for reasons why!" ... "Oh, well, what the hell am I even looking at! This interface is garbage!" I'm going to ask Kirkus to come in and explain his viewpoint about the interface in more detail. I know that he has some experience with designing GUIs, and that might also explain his brutal stance against it.

To me, the interace is functional. It was mediocre for 2006 or 2010, and maybe people are just forgetting how old this game is. I'm not worried about it at all with regards to DW2, because I am confident it will be improved. I believe we spent way too much time talking about it on the podcast. We have a real-time text chat about the podcast while we're recording, and I mentioned something like "guys, too much on interface, time to move on". I think it's an easy fallback for those who want to criticize DW.

My own gripes with interface: Ctrl+right_click and then select from a menu is rough for ship actions. I think it would be better if the standard right-click for a sensible default (move/attack) -- more or less implemented, feedback to the user on order submitted could be better -- and then a hotkey for other options (e.g. press "b" with a ship selected and click on a planet brings up a quick "build what?" menu, just like the current Ctrl-click options). I do remember that ctrl-right_click ends up hurting the finger which must press Ctrl constantly haha. More generally, people will want to see an updated interface that "looks smoother". I don't know what that means, as I play and enjoy Aurora 4X so I'm completely fine with this one, but... maybe Kirkus can tell you. [:'(]

The Economy

I have almost no complaints about this. I don't think it's reasonable to have the level of abstraction so small that individual traders have wealth. The one thing I've seen mentioned that holds water is that blockading someone's resource increases the price of that good throughout the whole galaxy, based on supply/demand. I don't know the exact mechanics, but that's a fair point.

In my opinion, the more important thing is the immersion that having all those civilian ships around adds. This is mentioned so often, yet no other game has capitalized on it. It's the biggest selling point of DW as a 4X game.

From the development side, you'll just have to realize (and probably already do) how people will choose to perceive any apparent shortcoming of the game as a flaw in thinking or an oversight, rather than a design compromise/decision in response to a trade-off. I believe that the only way to combat this would be to have dev diaries explaining the decisions that go into the game throughout production.

I personally don't mind the lack of dev diaries, as I see it as a choice to dedicate that time on game development itself instead. Conversely, one great reason to do dev diaries is for the introspection it requires. I've found this in my own work, and I'm sure it comes as no surprise that taking some time to formulate your design decisions on a topic into words forces you to reflect heavily on it. Even doing a dev diary and then never publishing it would be a helpful exercise. But, "at what cost?" Time is finite, sadly. Maybe you could ask the devs from a game that did dev diaries whether they are worth the time?


I'll do some more reflecting on why people don't "get the magic" of the game. I have always thought it was because of the game's learning curve, and it's exactly this reason why I tried to formulate such an in-depth and well-organized tutorial for the game. In Kirkus' case, it's something else. I'm not convinced he has shared the true reason, if he has realized it himself.


Thanks for taking the time to listen to the podcast.


All the best,
Tortuga

[Cauldyth]

All the best,
Tortuga

Off topic - loved the Dom4 Multiplayer FFA. Congrats on the win. [:)]

[Erik Rutins]

Hi tortugapower,

ORIGINAL: tortugapower
Distant Worlds is an extremely polarizing topic for 4X gamers. Why is this?

Interesting - it was never particularly polarizing here on our forums, but it's interesting to hear that it is elsewhere. I suppose some of this is just folks defending their favorite game, whichever that may be, but I think the differences in gameplay, production values and the bounce-off effect probably do have a lot to do with that.

The Interface
When people then dislike DW and are compelled to have a strong reaction against it, the reason why the interface is so maligned (to an unfair degree, I agree) is that it's an easy target. "I don't like this game, let me look for reasons why!" ... "Oh, well, what the hell am I even looking at! This interface is garbage!" I'm going to ask Kirkus to come in and explain his viewpoint about the interface in more detail. I know that he has some experience with designing GUIs, and that might also explain his brutal stance against it.

Thanks, as noted above, the more specific feedback we get the better.

My own gripes with interface: Ctrl+right_click and then select from a menu is rough for ship actions. I think it would be better if the standard right-click for a sensible default (move/attack) -- more or less implemented, feedback to the user on order submitted could be better -- and then a hotkey for other options (e.g. press "b" with a ship selected and click on a planet brings up a quick "build what?" menu, just like the current Ctrl-click options). I do remember that ctrl-right_click ends up hurting the finger which must press Ctrl constantly haha. More generally, people will want to see an updated interface that "looks smoother". I don't know what that means, as I play and enjoy Aurora 4X so I'm completely fine with this one, but... maybe Kirkus can tell you. [:'(]

Agreed on Ctrl+Right Click and more hotkeys.

The Economy
I have almost no complaints about this. I don't think it's reasonable to have the level of abstraction so small that individual traders have wealth. The one thing I've seen mentioned that holds water is that blockading someone's resource increases the price of that good throughout the whole galaxy, based on supply/demand. I don't know the exact mechanics, but that's a fair point.

Agree that the galactic price system was a weak point.

I personally don't mind the lack of dev diaries, as I see it as a choice to dedicate that time on game development itself instead. Conversely, one great reason to do dev diaries is for the introspection it requires. I've found this in my own work, and I'm sure it comes as no surprise that taking some time to formulate your design decisions on a topic into words forces you to reflect heavily on it. Even doing a dev diary and then never publishing it would be a helpful exercise. But, "at what cost?" Time is finite, sadly. Maybe you could ask the devs from a game that did dev diaries whether they are worth the time?

Yes, in the past it's been largely a choice between what to spend time on, but there are also a few other reasons. I expect for DW2 we will do a few though in the lead up to release to help explain our choices. We've certainly had plenty of internal discussions that amount to the equivalent for ourselves.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to the podcast.

Thanks for taking the time to do it and also for the reply.

Regards,

- Erik

[skigrinder]

The economy is the most mysterious and unintuitive aspect of the game for me.
I've always thought it would be nice to have a transaction log showing how & where all the money comes & goes.
The log would have a date stamp, location of transaction, amount (state or private), and a brief description.
The ability to see more detailed economic cause & effect in the early game would eliminate a lot of frustration (especially for first-time players).
Obviously, the log would become less 'readable' as the empire's development level grows and an option to turn transaction logging off would be prudent.
Thanks,
skigrinder

[Japhet]

I would say that research is actually the most mysterious and unintuitive aspect of the game. At least how research output is calculated. I remember a dozen threads about this subject back when the forum was more active.

ORIGINAL: tortugapower
Distant Worlds is an extremely polarizing topic for 4X gamers. Why is this?

Interesting - it was never particularly polarizing here on our forums, but it's interesting to hear that it is elsewhere. I suppose some of this is just folks defending their favorite game, whichever that may be, but I think the differences in gameplay, production values and the bounce-off effect probably do have a lot to do with that.

[/quote]

Yeah, I have never got this impression either. This Kirkus guy is probably the first one I have ever heard disliking or down right hating DW.

[Bingeling]

Research is not mysterious, it is just a bit confusing and counter intuitive. If you look at those old threads, you can see how it is calculated.
The economy on the other hand, is very hidden. What are the effects of free trade agreements? How much do you actually gain from the trade with empire X? It is even hard to see who pays for a mining station (state or civilians).

If you extend it to the economy including resources, how to you figure out why you got a shortage at one station, while having no overall shortage? How do you notice the effects of blockades, if there are any effects? What are the trends of my "low store" resources, are the numbers increasing/steady/declining? How do I know what resources are actually trade with other empires?

As for judging the economic situation, how much bonus income has I gotten for the last few years? Without knowing that, it is hard to know how much I can spend.

Some of these are possible to find out if you pay a lot of attention (resource trends, bonus income). But how to figure out free trade?

Not that any of these have ever prevented me from having fun with this game, but the game does not give a whole lot of information on the economic side.

[Lucian]

ORIGINAL: Japhet

I would say that research is actually the most mysterious and unintuitive aspect of the game. At least how research output is calculated. I remember a dozen threads about this subject back when the forum was more active.

Yeah I have to agree, it took me ages of reading and re-reading forum posts to understand exactly how research and research potential worked.

It could definitely have been presented in a much more intuitive and easy to follow way.