OT-The Vietnam War
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OT-The Vietnam War
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
- Chickenboy
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
Would you mind commenting on my questions about this series in the General Discussion forum, please crsutton?
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
I don't see your thread CB. Can you link it?ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
Would you mind commenting on my questions about this series in the General Discussion forum, please crsutton?
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I don't see your thread CB. Can you link it?ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
Would you mind commenting on my questions about this series in the General Discussion forum, please crsutton?
tm.asp?m=2959208&mpage=87
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
- Chickenboy
- Posts: 24520
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I don't see your thread CB. Can you link it?ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
Would you mind commenting on my questions about this series in the General Discussion forum, please crsutton?
It's from the General Discussion "What are you watching now" thread.
Oops...Lecivius got it...
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
Watched the first few episodes, missed last night, and will miss tonight (if its on). I thought, so far so good.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
- geofflambert
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
I watched the first episode and figured (wrong) that the next episode would be the following Sunday. I expect they'll be available somewhere in the archive.
I was kind of annoyed about the flipping back and forth over time, but I'm thinking that some people might think the French part is ancient history and not watch. Making it relevant to US watchers I guess. Is this being broadcast in the UK and elsewhere as well?
I was kind of annoyed about the flipping back and forth over time, but I'm thinking that some people might think the French part is ancient history and not watch. Making it relevant to US watchers I guess. Is this being broadcast in the UK and elsewhere as well?
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
I was looking at the WITP-AE General Discussion. Never go to the Matrix Games top level forum. Not interested in all the stuff about other games ...ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I don't see your thread CB. Can you link it?ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Would you mind commenting on my questions about this series in the General Discussion forum, please crsutton?
It's from the General Discussion "What are you watching now" thread.
Oops...Lecivius got it...
To answer the question, I am watching it when I can, but there are often conflicts with other programs I am interested in. I am certain PBS or HBO will air the series again.
I was pretty young and naïve when the Vietnam War was going on. I thought the US had to be the good guys and would never do ill-considered things - until I read about the villages being burned and people moved to keep them out of the clutches of the Viet Cong. Young and naïve as I was, I instinctively knew that the policy of uprooting people was bound to make implacable enemies. Nothing matters to farmers as much as their land. The series has made clear that this was one of many bad policies tried there.
The series also made clear that the politics of religion in the country (minority Catholic leadership suppressing Buddhist religion of majority) was a huge factor in setting people against the RVN government and the US which supported it. I am beginning to understand just how convoluted the whole thing was - and how the some of the lessons could apply to current issues in geopolitics.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
- MakeeLearn
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
Sung to the tune of "Poison Ivy"....
"Viet....nam Viet...nam
Late at night while you're sleeping
Charlie Cong comes a creeping all around... "
///
When tactics and logistics meet...
"Viet....nam Viet...nam
Late at night while you're sleeping
Charlie Cong comes a creeping all around... "
///
When tactics and logistics meet...
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- Chickenboy
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I was pretty young and naïve when the Vietnam War was going on. I thought the US had to be the good guys and would never do ill-considered things - until I read about the villages being burned and people moved to keep them out of the clutches of the Viet Cong. Young and naïve as I was, I instinctively knew that the policy of uprooting people was bound to make implacable enemies. Nothing matters to farmers as much as their land. The series has made clear that this was one of many bad policies tried there.
The series also made clear that the politics of religion in the country (minority Catholic leadership suppressing Buddhist religion of majority) was a huge factor in setting people against the RVN government and the US which supported it. I am beginning to understand just how convoluted the whole thing was - and how the some of the lessons could apply to current issues in geopolitics.
As my other post in the General Discussion Forum said, I really dislike coverage of the Vietnam War that's steeped irretrievably in the politics of the time. Ya ya Von Klauswitz, I know that war is a continuation of politics by other means, but I'm not interested in the diluted form of documentary that splits time between the protests here and the combat there on a 50:50 ratio. I'm also not interested in rehashing the politics of yore in a general sense. If the documentary can stick with the war per se, then I'm interested. Otherwise, like Vietnam: The 10,000 Day War (a Canadian series from 1984-1985) it delves into too much distraction.
I'd much rather read about the annihilation of the VC post-1968 Tet. What? You say the 'popular narrative' about that is that it was a harbinger of war's end and, like Cronkite, the war cannot be won? Not hardly. We had learned a lot about how to effectively counter the Viet Cong by 1968. Tet's failure hastened their demise. It was only a 'political victory' on the battlefield-whatever that means. See Unheralded Victory for a more balanced viewpoint of American combat successes in Vietnam.
So I'm staying away from any overly politically-laden 'documentary' of the war effort. Unless it's >75:25 "in country: home front" discussions, I'm not interested in rehashing the same slanted viewpoints brought up by other documentaries. We had military successes as we had military failures in Vietnam. A comprehensive evaluation of those would be refreshing.
The fact that it's Ken Burns gives me at least a sliver of hope that it's balanced. His Civil War documentaries were superb. The War (about the Second World War) was also good.
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: rustysi
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Anyone watching this on PBS? If not you should be. I find it to be very good and balanced.
Watched the first few episodes, missed last night, and will miss tonight (if its on). I thought, so far so good.
I found you can pull up episodes for a limited time if you go to PBS.org on the web. Just plug your laptop into the big screen and you are good to go.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I was pretty young and naïve when the Vietnam War was going on. I thought the US had to be the good guys and would never do ill-considered things - until I read about the villages being burned and people moved to keep them out of the clutches of the Viet Cong. Young and naïve as I was, I instinctively knew that the policy of uprooting people was bound to make implacable enemies. Nothing matters to farmers as much as their land. The series has made clear that this was one of many bad policies tried there.
The series also made clear that the politics of religion in the country (minority Catholic leadership suppressing Buddhist religion of majority) was a huge factor in setting people against the RVN government and the US which supported it. I am beginning to understand just how convoluted the whole thing was - and how the some of the lessons could apply to current issues in geopolitics.
As my other post in the General Discussion Forum said, I really dislike coverage of the Vietnam War that's steeped irretrievably in the politics of the time. Ya ya Von Klauswitz, I know that war is a continuation of politics by other means, but I'm not interested in the diluted form of documentary that splits time between the protests here and the combat there on a 50:50 ratio. I'm also not interested in rehashing the politics of yore in a general sense. If the documentary can stick with the war per se, then I'm interested. Otherwise, like Vietnam: The 10,000 Day War (a Canadian series from 1984-1985) it delves into too much distraction.
I'd much rather read about the annihilation of the VC post-1968 Tet. What? You say the 'popular narrative' about that is that it was a harbinger of war's end and, like Cronkite, the war cannot be won? Not hardly. We had learned a lot about how to effectively counter the Viet Cong by 1968. Tet's failure hastened their demise. It was only a 'political victory' on the battlefield-whatever that means. See Unheralded Victory for a more balanced viewpoint of American combat successes in Vietnam.
So I'm staying away from any overly politically-laden 'documentary' of the war effort. Unless it's >75:25 "in country: home front" discussions, I'm not interested in rehashing the same slanted viewpoints brought up by other documentaries. We had military successes as we had military failures in Vietnam. A comprehensive evaluation of those would be refreshing.
The fact that it's Ken Burns gives me at least a sliver of hope that it's balanced. His Civil War documentaries were superb. The War (about the Second World War) was also good.
Respectfully have to disagree. Although I appreciate a good military only documentary, that would not fit for a big public study such as this. You got to swallow the whole dose of medicine with this one. Presenting the war is fairly easy and straight forward but it was the politics-the world over, that mattered and really is the most difficult for the average viewer to understand.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
- MakeeLearn
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
Ive not watched it ... yet. There is a lot of the military aspects of the Vietnam conflict that have never been covered in depth in a documentary.
- Chickenboy
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- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
There is a lot of the military aspects of the Vietnam conflict that have never been covered in depth in a documentary.
Exactly.
The conventional documentaries that get bogged down in the politics have no choice other than to divert from the military campaign to talk about the interminable peace talks, protests/riots, the 1968 DNC convention, the role of drugs in the military, the draft, the....[>:][>:][>:]
If presenting the war is fairly easily, why hasn't anyone really taken the time to get it right? I respectfully disagree. I believe that the political focus and coverage of the home front is the low hanging fruit. Easier than breaking down combined Air Cav search / clear operations. Easier than explaining the annihilation of the VC by the US Army in 1968. Lots of military myths about this war need to be dispelled or examined more critically.
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
I've started watching the series (up to Episode 3 so far). As a avid potential soldier in that time I found that some of the idealistic writings of "Mogie" and his family's reminisces rang true for me in those times as well.
For the first time I am hearing now the words of doubt from our political leaders and how in the end THEIR concerns seemed to have nothing to do with the welfare of either our own soldiers or the South Vietnamese.
For the first time I am hearing now the words of doubt from our political leaders and how in the end THEIR concerns seemed to have nothing to do with the welfare of either our own soldiers or the South Vietnamese.
- geofflambert
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
I see no reason why we can't have both types. The military history could go into a lot of stuff you wouldn't in a sociological documentary like this. We need both. But minimalism is good too. Decision, consequence, political, social and military. Economic too. Too many ignorant know nothings in this country who need the opportunity to learn about it. Remember when the Presidential Press Secretary, Dana Perino, didn't know what the Cuban Missle Crisis was? I was appalled. Also, I really want to know what was happening in the Vietnamese civilian's mind, North and South. Since relations are far better now than before there may be a lot new to hear. Plus their military people might just blow you off if all you wanted to know was military stuff without the human background.
- MakeeLearn
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RE: OT-The Vietnam War
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I see no reason why we can't have both types. The military history could go into a lot of stuff you wouldn't in a sociological documentary like this. We need both. But minimalism is good too. Decision, consequence, political, social and military. Economic too. Too many ignorant know nothings in this country who need the opportunity to learn about it. Remember when the Presidential Press Secretary, Dana Perino, didn't know what the Cuban Missle Crisis was? I was appalled. Also, I really want to know what was happening in the Vietnamese civilian's mind, North and South. Since relations are far better now than before there may be a lot new to hear. Plus their military people might just blow you off if all you wanted to know was military stuff without the human background.
There is a Army cadence that covers this:
Pilot flying up over the trees
Dropping Napalm on refugees
Baby sucking on it's mother's tit
DOW Chemical don't give a sh*t
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
Well said.
If there is ANYTHING new that needs to be said about the Vietnam War, a re-examination of the real military operations, and their results - would be well in order..... free from the old political and News Media spin for the first time.
EDIT: The following documentary is but one example highlighting the disinformation that the coverage of the Vietnam War wallowed in -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2xudGyyxU&t=3s
If there is ANYTHING new that needs to be said about the Vietnam War, a re-examination of the real military operations, and their results - would be well in order..... free from the old political and News Media spin for the first time.
EDIT: The following documentary is but one example highlighting the disinformation that the coverage of the Vietnam War wallowed in -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2xudGyyxU&t=3s
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
There is a lot of the military aspects of the Vietnam conflict that have never been covered in depth in a documentary.
Exactly.
The conventional documentaries that get bogged down in the politics have no choice other than to divert from the military campaign to talk about the interminable peace talks, protests/riots, the 1968 DNC convention, the role of drugs in the military, the draft, the....[>:][>:][>:]
If presenting the war is fairly easily, why hasn't anyone really taken the time to get it right? I respectfully disagree. I believe that the political focus and coverage of the home front is the low hanging fruit. Easier than breaking down combined Air Cav search / clear operations. Easier than explaining the annihilation of the VC by the US Army in 1968. Lots of military myths about this war need to be dispelled or examined more critically.
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
Easier than breaking down combined Air Cav search / clear operations. Easier than explaining the annihilation of the VC by the US Army in 1968. Lots of military myths about this war need to be dispelled or examined more critically.
Something I read in "ON STRATEGY" many years ago is pertinent here. I have to paraphrase it cause I no longer have the book. I think it was at the start of Chapter 1.
Said the American Colonel to the North Vietnamese Colonel at the Paris Peace Talks; "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield".
Said the North Vietnamese Colonel to the American Colonel, "That may be so, but it is also irrelevant".
Wars are fought for political reasons. The US generals did indeed examine, why; since they triumphed virtually every time they fought the North Vietnamese, the US lost the war. The problem was not tactics.
The real question today is whether they have forgotten the answer. Their political masters are and should be their civilian masters. They are the ones who get to say whether to go or not to go. When the JCS/Generals disagree with a proposed action it is incumbent upon them to resign and make sure that their political master takes ALL RESPONSIBILITY for what transpires next. Then at least their political master will ultimately pay the price of defeat.
RE: OT-The Vietnam War
I quite agree... US military victory on the battlefield was a fact - and quite irrelevant to the outcome.
War is politics by another means - that is true.
In the case of South Vietnam 1965-1975, the real war was fought on the American Home Front.
The Communist side won the victory by co-opting the democratic Party who had control of the Congress, to the point that when they re-ignited the war with the Easter Offensive in 1975 - Congress denied President Ford the action of honoring US Obligations to go back and defend South Vietnam - as the Cease Fire Agreement of 1973 required (even though Ford tried to honor that obligation) and they did one better - the Democrat controlled Congress - CUT all aid to South Vietnam as we had promised them in the same agreement - in the hour of their need. Cut off All military aid to South Vietnam.
So yeah - the Communist North did in fact win the war...but it's indispensable ally was the US Media and the Democrat Party... I'm old enough to remember all that first hand.
War is politics by another means - that is true.
In the case of South Vietnam 1965-1975, the real war was fought on the American Home Front.
The Communist side won the victory by co-opting the democratic Party who had control of the Congress, to the point that when they re-ignited the war with the Easter Offensive in 1975 - Congress denied President Ford the action of honoring US Obligations to go back and defend South Vietnam - as the Cease Fire Agreement of 1973 required (even though Ford tried to honor that obligation) and they did one better - the Democrat controlled Congress - CUT all aid to South Vietnam as we had promised them in the same agreement - in the hour of their need. Cut off All military aid to South Vietnam.
So yeah - the Communist North did in fact win the war...but it's indispensable ally was the US Media and the Democrat Party... I'm old enough to remember all that first hand.
ORIGINAL: spence
Easier than breaking down combined Air Cav search / clear operations. Easier than explaining the annihilation of the VC by the US Army in 1968. Lots of military myths about this war need to be dispelled or examined more critically.
Something I read in "ON STRATEGY" many years ago is pertinent here. I have to paraphrase it cause I no longer have the book. I think it was at the start of Chapter 1.
Said the American Colonel to the North Vietnamese Colonel at the Paris Peace Talks; "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield".
Said the North Vietnamese Colonel to the American Colonel, "That may be so, but it is also irrelevant".
Wars are fought for political reasons. The US generals did indeed examine, why; since they triumphed virtually every time they fought the North Vietnamese, the US lost the war. The problem was not tactics.
The real question today is whether they have forgotten the answer. Their political masters are and should be their civilian masters. They are the ones who get to say whether to go or not to go. When the JCS/Generals disagree with a proposed action it is incumbent upon them to resign and make sure that their political master takes ALL RESPONSIBILITY for what transpires next. Then at least their political master will ultimately pay the price of defeat.