NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

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stefanopix
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NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by stefanopix »

Hello,

I just started a trial solitarie game of the Guadalcanal Scenario.
I have played three Barbarossa scenarios and now I want to try the naval part of the game.

I have followed all the tutorial and read the RAC, plus a lot of The player's manual vol 1.

Playing Barbarossa was quite easy, with Guadalcanal I must admit I feel completely lost.

My idea is to begin moving units following the sequence of play indicated by the program and try to
do things at best as I can.

Unfortunately I must admit my grasp of the rules is so limited I had difficoulties doing also the easyest things.

After a couple of impulses I have managed to capture Port Moresby as the Japanese player and then I fought a quite big
naval battle in the Solomons with the allied cut to pieces by the mighty imperial navy aeronaval forces.

If not guided step by step by the program I for shoure would have done tons of mistakes in the different procedures.

MWIF is absolutely fantastic in helping to understand the rules, but I would like to have some suggestions about the proper
way to learn this fantastic game.

I have begun to read the different threads but it seems to me also this newbie section is too full of advanced consideration on gamplay while what I need should be very basic ideas and imput to follow in my first games.

Any suggestion about where to find some helpful threads or similar on this?

Please note that after the tutorials and the fantastic manual I am quite confident in the use of the program, what I need is tactical/operational suggestion on the management of the pletora of option opened to the player...

Thanks

Stefano
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Orm
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Orm »

The Scenario Booklet has some advice on how to play for each of the scenarios. And some general advice as well. Plenty of nice reading on how to become a better player. It is included in the game and you can find it through the in-game menu.


In the thread linked below you can find a PDF version of the World in Flames 1998 Annual . It should provide some nice reading as well.

tm.asp?m=3472676
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
IBender
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by IBender »

I found that Barbarossa helped me, but Guadalcanal confused me....therefore after a couple barbarossa's I moved on to Global. I worked on setting up for a global game and the set up for the convoys. Things made more sense to me seeing the bigger picture. I have always used all the optional rules as I feel it is ok not to understand everything. Having the optional rules in place prompted me to gradually sort things out over time. For example food in flames was always in play even though I didnt have a clue what it did, was 6 months later I just sat and figured it out. I remember thinking how easy America set up would be....yea surprise realization I dont understand where there resources come and go from ...so that lead me to the forums and asking question.

Oil is confusing, but oil seems like a realistic thing to have in the game, and even today I still am not good with oil rules, but..I am gradually getting better. Nothing like playing a couple turns and then seeing a country bone dry of oil to prompt you to start learning oil.

Lastly, I found that setting up global game meant...that I had no idea often what I was doing when I put units on the map but...each game after I got gradually better. I set up, play a little bit...realize how messed up my set up was and restart the game. I still remember how much effort it took for me to move the BEF to France from England. Couldnt do it, messed it up, couldnt do it, got some there others not there etc. Eventually I could do it. I feel like these small successes on a global game helped keep me in the game and each time I play a global I get gradually better.

Nothing like being Germany and 100% believing you can roll over France and realizing....ah, Germany lost have its army and it took forever to conquer.

Basically, I began by setting up global and learning to conquer poland. Set up new global and learn to conqure france etc. It worked for me.

Guadacanal didnt make sense to me and I was at a complete loss trying to do anything with it.

Also, I feel playing the Global you learn some simple and surprising things early that are important. Like learning what each country needs / should build ...I assumed it would be obvious, but it was fun to learn and see that actually its not obvious and each country is different in the needs. etc
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Courtenay
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Courtenay »

Not all the optional rules are good. Some are almost never played by experienced players. For example, few will play with surprised ZOCs. I certainly won't; it is far too one sided for the Axis.

Also, Construction Engineers is just frustrating. The HQ movement rule is designed to drive the Chinese player out of his mind.

Just because a rule is optional, does not mean that the game is better with the rule in there.
I thought I knew how to play this game....
IBender
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by IBender »

is optional, does not mean that the game is better with the rule in there.
Interesting ideas, I will need to think about what you said. I assumed they were all good.
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paulderynck
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by paulderynck »

Some of them are only useful for balancing play between FREX a very experienced player and a complete newbie, and should not be used by players of relatively equal experience; or if they are used, then they need to be counter-balanced with an optional that heavily favors the other side.
Paul
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Joseignacio
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Joseignacio »

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Not all the optional rules are good. Some are almost never played by experienced players. For example, few will play with surprised ZOCs. I certainly won't; it is far too one sided for the Axis.

Also, Construction Engineers is just frustrating. The HQ movement rule is designed to drive the Chinese player out of his mind.

Just because a rule is optional, does not mean that the game is better with the rule in there.


So true...
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Joseignacio
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Joseignacio »

ORIGINAL: Azorn01
is optional, does not mean that the game is better with the rule in there.
Interesting ideas, I will need to think about what you said. I assumed they were all good.

No, they are there besides of balancing the game as Paul said, because some players like them and, in a small worlds like WIF world (bigger than in other complex games for sure, but still small), the game designer couldn't afford to lose a percentage of players just for not having an optional they believe is unwaiverable...

However, most of the rules belong to the group that 95% of the players love or those that only 5% do.

I have had many board games and if we were passing for approval like 40 or 50 optionals (they change with the board game version) there was absolute agreement like in 40 yes for everyone and like 6 or 7 no for everyone, being only like 3 or 4 what we had to negotiate or compensate.

No, not all are good for the community, for very many some optionals are absolutely necessary and other are banned from the games, and usually (not always though) they are the same in each and every group.
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paulderynck
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by paulderynck »

Yeah in several recent multi-player Vassal games where all 76 optionals (some are uncoded in MWiF), and one or two house rule suggestions, are up for discussion, it can take the equivalent of two playing sessions to get all the horse trading done.
Paul
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Courtenay
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Courtenay »

It helps things to go faster if you pick the optionals before you pick sides! [:)]
I thought I knew how to play this game....
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paulderynck
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by paulderynck »

Indeed. But as Jose stated, there are some options that are almost universally reviled and many that are universally adopted. It just takes time to go through the full list and discuss the half dozen or so that not everyone wants to use. A former opponent of mine had even enhanced the list to include "sub-options" he thought merited discussion and agreement because the rules state you may use all or just some of an option. Of course it's all or nothing for each option in MWiF.

Paul
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by IBender »

This is an interesting conversation. I dont have the experience you guys do with the game but it makes me think on the topic. Couple questions come to mind and I dont have an opinion on it yet.

1. Why would they code optional rules if some are clearly unfair?

2. Is it actually a problem that some optional rules are unfair? Seems to me that world war 2 was not a fair war. Each side had different things that unbalanced the war one way or the other at various times. With that said...wouldnt unfair / unbalancing optional rules be a good thing?

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paulderynck
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by paulderynck »

1. Play balance (as stated) for when one side possesses far more experience.

2. No. It's a game, it's not WWII. Would you play Chess against someone if you had 12 pieces?
Paul
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by IBender »

That makes sense
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Joseignacio
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Joseignacio »

1 Play balance, yes. But also the play balance can be different for everyone, some believe Axis is overpowered, others the opposite, so some are for rules that make the resource transport by sea more risky while others don't. Some believe the URSS is underpowered, so they use the Guard Banner Armies optional, others believe its way too much. And so on.

But also it's not that they create optionals for a group that have some weird opinion ... I believe it comes from a process; this game has been evolving for 25? 30? years, and some of the optionals are just the primitive rules, that have became obsolete for all but for some nostalgic. For example the 1d10, while now almost everybody plays with 2d10 or even 3d10. Of course, that depends on whether you are playing with divisions or not. It doesn't make sense to play 1d10 with divisions IMO.

2 Some people get upset that the game may give balanced opportunities to win, but it's clear that, unless the allied side is completely inefficient the Axis won't conquer Europe or the world, while the Allies will or at least the Axis areas in the world. The axis would win by making a better result, through resisting longer than in the historical dates, in our games. But to do that and have fun you may need to give them some advantage, no simulation is perfect and the game needs to be fun, to be given a starving country/economy that will be easily crushed may be historically accurate in some cases but it's not fun. I believe the game tries to be mainly very realistic but with some touches that make it fun as well.
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Orm
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Orm »

I object to the statement that "I believe it comes from a process; this game has been evolving for 25? 30? years, and some of the optionals are just the primitive rules, that have became obsolete for all but for some nostalgic. For example the 1d10, while now almost everybody plays with 2d10 or even 3d10.".

I do not agree at all. I find it almost insulting to claim that those who prefer 1d10 do so for nostalgic reasons. I also want to point out that the 2d10 is the optional rule and the 1d10 is the main rule so that, according to your reasoning, would make the 2d10 the "primitive" rule.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
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Joseignacio
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Joseignacio »

Well, I didn't mean to insult anyone, and I don't think that preferring something for nostalgic reasons is something to be ashamed of or be insulted with. But I apologize if you or somebody else feels insulted, it was not my intention.

That's what I thought based on the comments that I see in the forums I am user of, by people who prefer that one. NOt you, ok, sorry.

And while it is obvious that the first rule was 1d10 and thus, the rest are optionals or possible modifications, IMO this does not invalidate the fact that in practice, nowadays, by far the standard are 2d10 and 3d10, and 1d10 is preserved because a (IMO small) minority still thinks it's important for the game.

Same happens with not using CVPs, it's really uncommon not to use the optional, and the original rule is preserved because... well who knows why, everybody may have their reasons as you say. [:)]
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Centuur
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Well, I didn't mean to insult anyone, and I don't think that preferring something for nostalgic reasons is something to be ashamed of or be insulted with. But I apologize if you or somebody else feels insulted, it was not my intention.

That's what I thought based on the comments that I see in the forums I am user of, by people who prefer that one. NOt you, ok, sorry.

And while it is obvious that the first rule was 1d10 and thus, the rest are optionals or possible modifications, IMO this does not invalidate the fact that in practice, nowadays, by far the standard are 2d10 and 3d10, and 1d10 is preserved because a (IMO small) minority still thinks it's important for the game.

Same happens with not using CVPs, it's really uncommon not to use the optional, and the original rule is preserved because... well who knows why, everybody may have their reasons as you say. [:)]

Optional rules will make the game more difficult. If you get a newbie to play this game (on the board or computer, doesn't matter), I believe it is better to start without all the chrome.
Never, ever did I play this game when a new player is in the team with divisions and if you do, you don't want to use 2D10, since it is far to bloody to use when division are not in play.
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by IBender »

Clearly this is an interesting topic with many different opinions on it. I like that it can be discussed.
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Jagdtiger14
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RE: NEWBIE GUADALCANAL

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

I object to the statement that "I believe it comes from a process; this game has been evolving for 25? 30? years, and some of the optionals are just the primitive rules, that have became obsolete for all but for some nostalgic. For example the 1d10, while now almost everybody plays with 2d10 or even 3d10.". I do not agree at all. I find it almost insulting to claim that those who prefer 1d10 do so for nostalgic reasons. I also want to point out that the 2d10 is the optional rule and the 1d10 is the main rule so that, according to your reasoning, would make the 2d10 the "primitive" rule.



I would like to know why some players prefer 1d10 (or are resistant to playing 2d10). I'm sure I've written this before somewhere, but I have been to 3 WiFcons (2 in Michigan, and 1 Euro-WiFcon in Hoffgeismer). I like to walk around and take a look at all the games being played. Not one table in all 3 of those cons did I see anything other than 2d10 being played with. Here in south Florida there were two groups (until we merged) playing independently and neither group ever played with anything other than 2d10 from the get go (day 1 of learning the game). Nostalgia would actually make sense to me (and that's not a negative)...if our group started with 1d10, perhaps we would resist 2d10.

I hope some day there will be tournaments for MWiF. If this is something that interests a player, I highly doubt 1d10 would be played with unless both players/teams decided for that match that it would (choosing options). I think 2d10 would be standard for any tournament play if both cant agree on 1d10.


Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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