Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

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fatgreta1066
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Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by fatgreta1066 »

I played several partial campaigns when this game first came out, the original release. As the Allies, I generally made it to about 1943 and was doing either about as well as historical or a little worse. I didn't play until recently, using 1.08. As Allies in my first campaign, I just won a decisive victory by conquering Germany in August 1943.

In late 1941, on a lark, I sent a British corps to Amphib Invade Syracuse, on Sicily. There were no Italian units in Sicily, so I took Syracuse. They sent a unit to (Palermo, the northern Sicilian port?), but I got a second corps to defend the passage across from mainland Italy. While pushing the Axis back in Egypt, I put more units into Sicily, and expanded up into the lower part of the boot.

In 1942 I Amphib'd just North of Rome, expanded that bridgehead, cut Italy in half. At the same time, having basically conquered Libya (Italy joined the Allies just before I finished that), I invaded Greece and began pushing north from there.

Meanwhile, the Russians were pushing the Germans back much faster than historically.

I started the game on the easiest setting. In early 1942 I logged in as Germany to see what was happening, saw that they still seemed fairly strong, reloaded as Allies pumping the AI up to max difficulty. Too little too late. British forces pushed North from Italy and ran amok through an almost un-garrisoned central Germany. The Russians took Warsaw and had only supply problems to keep them at bay. The US was liberating the Balkans when the UK took Berlin.

I did use diplomacy to bring the US into the war in September of 1941, so of course that helped. But I did basically the same thing in my previous game on the original patch.

So I'm just wondering, was that unusual? Maybe I just was more efficient after previous unfinished campaigns? Maybe an anomaly?

I'm upgrading to 1.09 and giving that a try on harder difficulty, but I thought I'd check and see what others' experience has been.
Goodmongo
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Goodmongo »

I found the game was always too easy as the allies and the latest patches make it even more so. If you want any type of challenge against the AI while playing as the allies you must give the axis some bonuses. XP and MPP are the ones I like to give to the Axis.
fatgreta1066
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by fatgreta1066 »

Yes, I'm trying it again with +20% MPP, +2 spotting and +1 exp. I'm also making some poorer choices on some of the events, trying to make it a bit harder. And I'm just not going to invade Italy until I've re-taken Africa, I have a feeling the AI just wasn't capable of responding to that move effectively.
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Christolos
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Christolos »

Hi Goodmongo,

Have you tried it yet in a PBEM++ game. I am playing a game right now, with v1.09.01 Beta, where my very clever and crafty Axis opponent (in our second game) is about to conquer France by May 1940...

It will be interesting to see how the new changes will make a difference in my ability to defend Russia. I lost handedly, with me as the Allies, to this same opponent in our first game with v1.03.04.03 BETA, so it will be interesting to see what happens with the new changes.

I have not tried v1.09.01 Beta against the Axis AI yet...

C
“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-
Goodmongo
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Goodmongo »

Hey CC1,

I play my son in hotseat and I play against the AI. Using version 1.09.01 against an Axis AI is just way too easy. As for France against my son I remove all armies from the Maginot areas and replace with corps. I do this ASAP and it makes for a tough choice. The Germans have to beat their heads and take the long way or face entrenched armies.

Seems your opponent did the piecemeal attack starting in March to take out the low countries. I always felt this to be a type of exploit so we have house rules against starting the attack before Denmark/Norway decision. The best a German player can hope for is 1 turn for Low countries then 3 turns to take out France. But I've been able to hold out for up to 6 turns as France if I'm really lucky in the dice rolls.

Russia is where I see the biggest impact with the supply changes. Of course if the Germans get lucky with research they can still win. But if research is neutral then the Germans have a choice of 2 thrusts as they don't have the capability for all three. So I let them have one thrust, strongly counter the other one and the third one just naturally stalemates as the Germans don't have the air or tanks to do all three. For me the lower supply for air is a big change. Air without HQ's aren't the killers like they were before.
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Christolos
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Christolos »

Hi Goodmongo,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, my opponent did invade the low countries starting in March (Luxemburg was invaded in February)...but at the time, I did not think about it in terms of it being perceived as a type of exploit. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion as to why you feel that it is. I suppose it would certainly be the case if core units required for the occupation of Denmark and invasion of Norway were needed such that fewer units would be available for an early Low countries invasion...

I too remove all the Armies from the Maginot line and even managed to get Infantry Warfare researched in time...but the French units, with only one HQ unit available at the start, are still too poor in quality (very low readiness and morale...) to make much of a difference.

We haven't gotten to Barbarossa yet in our game and so I am looking forward to see what the changes v1.09.01 Beta will do to make it a little tougher on the Axis.

Cheers,

C

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-
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Birdw
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Birdw »

The changes have made it impossible for the Axis to win. I've played 5 total games PBEM against very competent opponents and the Axis were toasted in all of those games. In several of the games I had Russian forces approaching Warsaw in late 1942. It goes without saying that Germany fell in 1943 in 3 of the games. Playing as the Axis the best I've done is Germany lasting until the early Fall of 1944. It is the opinion of my opponents and myself that the Allies are too powerful now. Forget the Western allies the Russians can win without a single allied soldier coming ashore in mainland Europe.

The changes they have made to the game are all to the Allied advantage. I think there should be a new way to determine victory based on how long the Axis last.
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Christolos
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Christolos »

Hi Birde,

Thanks for this interesting input.

Before the 1.08- 1.09 changes, it really felt like the Axis was advantaged in PBEM++ if it tech-ed up early, especially with ground attack for its air power.

In my previous v1.03.01 Beta PBEM++ game with my Axis opponent, I had my entire Russian defense of Moscow get totally obliterated (I'm talking several army units, almost all my Siberian units and countless tank and heavy tank units), all in one turn, under the combined weight of massed Axis airpower and being mopped up with land units.

With the recent changes to air power ground attack levels being ramped up by 0.5 per level instead of 1.0 (although the effects of bringing down morale are good...), and the requirement to be attached to HQ's for supply...maybe the correction to try and balance the game has gone to far in favour of the Allies. My PBEM++ opponent and I are anxious to see how these changes will play out in our second game with me again as the Allies.

My feeling is that airpower was too powerful and should be followed up with skillful land attacks to benefit an offensive drive. The way it was before was too heavily sided towards air power alone deciding the outcome.

There are of course other factors at play here too, in particular, how aggressively the Russians defend the front lines versus skillfully pulling back to establish secondary lines of defence , etc...

C
“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-
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nnason
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by nnason »

Play balance is so hard. But I agree Allies have it easy against a human opponent.
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Birdw
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Birdw »

I was beating human opponents in the first versions as the Allies. I won and lost from each side. Since the change 1.04 or whichever version changed the supply rules the Axis side has been in a downward spiral as all the game changes have benefited the Allies. I think there was a knee jerk reaction and changes were made before players were up to speed on the game system. I stated at the time IMHO that they were fixing something that wasn't broken. All things considered there is a counter to almost any strategy be it tactical in nature(air power being to strong for example) or strategic (which countries to use diplomacy). I've started playing the mods, in the vanilla 1939 scenario Axis have very little chance of surviving to the last turn much less winning the game.
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Hubert Cater
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Hubert Cater »

Thanks for the feedback everyone and just a heads up that we are also working on possible changes to address any new imbalances in the game since the v1.04 update.

Off hand I would argue that the supply changes were good ones and necessary to give the game a more realistic and historical feel, especially in areas such as North Africa and once the Axis drive deep into the USSR... however if as a result it has made things too easy for the Allies, our preference would not necessarily be to roll back those changes, but rather to make any further adjustments within this new framework to ensure that balance is renewed/maintained going forward, and that is exactly what we are working towards with the next official update.
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Birdw
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Birdw »

Hubert, you are the man!

I've never encountered in any game support like you give when it comes to your games.

A very heartfelt thank you!
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nnason
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by nnason »

My thoughts on some realistic ways to balance the play are:
1. Hitler thought he was a great military genius due to the early successes the Axis had when his general staff were more cautious. Consequently during the middle (later 1941) and later parts of WWII Hitler made and the general staff allowed Hitler to make some really bone head strategic and operational decisions. By giving the game player total control this play balance has already been done. Now we players can make different bonehead decisions. :-)
2. I understand Germany did not ramp up to an economic war footing until later in the war. This is an area that could be adjusted.
3. Germany spent a lot of their research on nutty weapons that had little effect on winning the war. V2 and rocket planes are good examples. Perhaps adjustment could be made in this area.
4. Germany treated the Pols and Slavs very baddy resulting in much unrest in the Poland and the Ukraine. Perhaps this could be adjusted.
5. While I think eliminating the “final solution” would be too much out of character for a game with the Nazis perhaps some adjustment could be made here.
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DeriKuk
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by DeriKuk »

I'm testing 1.09 (6c Beta) as the Axis. The MAJOR thing I noticed is the extreme reduction in Axis SUPPLY levels in Russia, especially in southern Russia ... so much so that getting near any historical advances is now near impossible.

Has this been overcooked?
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Goodmongo »

ORIGINAL: hjalmar99

I'm testing 1.09 (6c Beta) as the Axis. The MAJOR thing I noticed is the extreme reduction in Axis SUPPLY levels in Russia, especially in southern Russia ... so much so that getting near any historical advances is now near impossible.

Has this been overcooked?

To me this coupled with the reduction in air power (HQ requirement and reduction in damage) causes the Axis the most problems.

I completely respect the devs. But I also feel they made a mistake that was based on incomplete user feedback from MP games. I get what they want to do to obtain more historical accuracy but to be honest even before any changes to air and supply the Axis had a tough road ahead and in the SP version the Axis was too easily crushed no matter what difficulty you used.
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by nnason »

OK in a truly historically accurate game the allies baring bonehead decisions should always win by mid 1945. In a case like this winning should be judged on how long the Axis can hang on. I favor a game which is more play balanced allowing for some real what ifs. SCIE allows some of what ifs with diplomacy and research. But as many have said the game is still to imbalanced towards the Allies. See my note above on my thought on how to balance with more what ifs.
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wie201
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by wie201 »

I have mentioned several times a friend of mine who is playing PBEM under what was the last patch to Version 1.08. He also played once against the AI as Axis.

A short preface – that friend is my son. Also, he doesn’t (hasn’t) play(ed) wargames. Ever (until now). And, of course, never read the rules (new generation – no time for that).

As Axis he defeated the AI 1943, but let’s forget about the AI.

In PBEM he took Perm and defeated Russia in 1942 against a sharp opponent. 1942. He took England in early 1943 (after his first invasion was bloodily repulsed) with virtually no navy (all sunk because he had no idea what did what, for instance that a BB was stronger than a CA in surface combat, or that a U-Boat should shy away from DDs).

Again, all he ever played on the computer were shoot-em-ups and RPGs (I can’t tell you, i.e., don’t want to remember, how much we’ve spent on World of Warcraft over the years). Now he played Civilization 3 and 4 once in a while, but he almost always plays “twitch and reflex” games and WOW.

And this is the very first wargame, computer or paper, he has ever tried. Like, ever ever. He has no clue what the NATO symbols mean (and therefore has to use the images), didn’t realize that Italy fought on the side of Germany, did not know where Stalingrad was or, for that matter, there was a battle there, would not know a Jadgpanther Tank from a Char B, etc. etc. You get the idea.

Although he is smart, he is from my bloodline AND WE DON’T MAKE GENIUSES.

HE KNEW JACK ALL!

I did not help him one bit in either game – he won on his own, and faster than me, with 40 years’ experience! Crushing victories.

BUT, now as Allies, all that has changed (Version 1.09). That game is ongoing.

And no, you cannot challenge my son as he is in his last year at law school 😊

At least until he has a JOB!!!!

I am not bragging. Although I am intimidated.

The bottom line is that maybe we should get a larger sampling size before we make too many changes.

EDIT - and no, does not read the forums for any tips. Live-in girlfriend, and all.


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nnason
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by nnason »

Well after he gets a job perhaps we can enlist him to play test. :-)
I agree with sampling size. Might be a good idea to sample all players on the forum or even all that are doing PBEM.
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Christolos
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by Christolos »

I agree with getting a proper sampling size...but I also see the merits of the approach put forward by Hubert: fb.asp?m=4339295

The only true way to balance the game would be to make it more like chess where both sides have the same forces (not possible of course because of the historical context...)...and even there, the game of chess is not truly balanced because the white side gets the first move. In this case (where white gets the first move) the best opponents of equal experience and skill can expect, is a draw. This brings me to my next point, how do we control for the relative skill and experience of each opponent? I am of course referring to play balance in the context of PBEM++.

C
“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-
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RE: Does v1.08 Make it easier on the allies?

Post by wie201 »

Yes, I too wholly agree with Hubert, and with what nnason discusses regarding possible "what-ifs" solutions below:

"OK in a truly historically accurate game the allies baring bonehead decisions should always win by mid 1945. In a case like this winning should be judged on how long the Axis can hang on. I favor a game which is more play balanced allowing for some real what ifs. SCIE allows some of what ifs with diplomacy and research. But as many have said the game is still to imbalanced towards the Allies. See my note above on my thought on how to balance with more what ifs."

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