TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write

[JeffroK]

Pilot experience.
IMVHO, there should be prewar and well trained regular pilots for both sides, aircraft performance then differentiates between A6M2 & F4F-3.
Exceptions to this are newly raised squadrons, such as the RAF/RAAF in Malaya where the fighter sqns where mostly pilots out of pilot training schools, I'm sure there are japanese and USAAF sqn in similar situations.

New sqns do not arrive with better than the current national training experience numbers (you can have a wider variance in other skills though). RAF sqn could be an exception, most arrived with experience in Europe or Africa although there was a habit of sending the best pilots on home leave and filling them out with green pilots, a bit of research involved. (Can they arrive without pilots and you have to allocate them?)

Arriving "Ace" pilots have credit for their experience, the game gives some 10+ Victory pilots some average numbers.

I want the game to force the player to invest in pilot training OR creating "Squadrons of Aces". Either a small number of "Experten" or forcing skilled pilots back into the Training cycle and allocating experienced pilots into newly arrived squadrons (as Sqn & Flt leaders etc) This was a major difference between the Allied and Axis approach to their pilots.

Maybe a different game, but I thought pilots lost experience points when changing aircraft types, maybe UV or WITP vanilla.

Plus, I would like to see a lot more randomness in skill ratings, most are allocated on what was achieved during the war, who would KNOW FOR SURE that Wingate or Slim or Vandegrift or HM Smith would succeed or fail, added to this is, IMHO, a very slow improvement of skill for major LCU commanders.
Enough dreamimg, suns up, get outside for some gardening.

[John 3rd]

LIKE all of that Jeff.

Can you throw out more specifics?

[John 3rd]

This is cut directly from the website on the re-tooled cruisers of Japan in BTS--BTSL.

Heavy Cruisers
Changes and Additions

With the London Treaty coming in slightly different then what happened historically the Japanese do a complete retooling of their cruiser fleet. The marginal Aoba's/Furutaka's are shifted to 6" guns, thus, making them capable light cruisers. The impressive Mogami's keep their 15 6" guns and are not up-gunned. These changes effectively move and/or keep Japan with 8 capable, more modern CLs.

Heavy Cruisers (years built)
1. EIGHT Myoko-Class built: Myoko(29), Nachi(28), Haguro(29), Ashigara(29), Seiki(29), Chishima(30), Miyako(30), and Yoshino(30).

2. FOUR Takao-Class: Takao(32), Atago(32), Maya(32), and Chokai(32)
3. TWO Niitaka-Class: Tone (39) and Chikuma (40)

Japan starts with 14 CAs instead of 16.

Instead of the Tone-Class, the Japanese decide to create a stronger 'command cruiser.' The Niitaka-Class is designed with 4x3 8" guns and heavy Long Lance armament. Displacement surges to 15,000T and are a perfect example of the 'using a few to conquer many' strategy. The first pair are the Tone and Chikuma with two pairs due to arrive in the Fleet in late-42/43 and 44/45. The design for this class of ships was found over in ship bucket.



Light Cruisers
Changes and Additions

Already written on there being changes with CAs. The changes are pretty big for Light Cruisers.

Classes:
Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma, and Tama are converted to Fast Minelayers.
Kitakami, Kiso, and Oi become Training Cruisers with no need to build the Katori-Class.
Nagara-Class: Nagara, Isuzu, Yura, Natori, Kinu, and Abukuma
Sendai-Class: Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, Minase, Ayase, and Otonase
Yubari-Class: Yubari
Furutaka-Class: Furutaka, Kako, Aoba, and Kinugasa 3x3 6"
Mogami-Class: Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, and Kumano 5x3 6"

The Tokoro-Class is authorized to replace the old Nagara/Sendai-Classes. Initially a run of 10-12 is planned but that is changed once war begins. These CLs have 3x3 6", good Torps, and 8,000T.

Total pre-war CLs is 20 (4 as ML—3 as Training Cruisers) with 8 building.




IDEAS/CHANGES
1. Up-gun the Mogami’s as was done prior to the war.
2. Allow for Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma, Tama to have multiple upgrade paths: back to CLs, TT Cruisers, or CLAA.
3. Ditto Kitakami, Oi, and Kiso.

I am always a great believer in allowing for choices. Perhaps the multiple options is what a player would like.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'd suggest just adding a few additional ACM at the start of the game to meet the minimum requirements for the mines currently deployed by Japan. It makes sense, as InfiniteMonkey points out, that Japan would not deploy minefields if there were not enough tenders to service them. And then if you feel there are not enough To-su class hulls to meet the needs of future mine fields, you could maybe add another 20-30 To'su class that can convert to ACMs.

I am not sure that is correct. Japan wanted to meet the Americans as they advanced on Luzon and drop mines as part of the decisive battle...and having ACM tending the fields on an active battle didn't factor into their thinking. Perhaps once the direction of the war changed from offensive to defensive.

Mines are severely nerfed on the the Allied side, it was so successful I believe they kept the data top secret into the 1980's because it was such a great tactic.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


Light Cruisers
Changes and Additions

Already written on there being changes with CAs. The changes are pretty big for Light Cruisers.

Classes:
Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma, and Tama are converted to Fast Minelayers.
Kitakami, Kiso, and Oi become Training Cruisers with no need to build the Katori-Class.
Nagara-Class: Nagara, Isuzu, Yura, Natori, Kinu, and Abukuma
Sendai-Class: Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, Minase, Ayase, and Otonase
Yubari-Class: Yubari
Furutaka-Class: Furutaka, Kako, Aoba, and Kinugasa 3x3 6"
Mogami-Class: Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, and Kumano 5x3 6"

The Tokoro-Class is authorized to replace the old Nagara/Sendai-Classes. Initially a run of 10-12 is planned but that is changed once war begins. These CLs have 3x3 6", good Torps, and 8,000T.

Total pre-war CLs is 20 (4 as ML—3 as Training Cruisers) with 8 building.




IDEAS/CHANGES
1. Up-gun the Mogami’s as was done prior to the war.
2. Allow for Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma, Tama to have multiple upgrade paths: back to CLs, TT Cruisers, or CLAA.
3. Ditto Kitakami, Oi, and Kiso.

I am always a great believer in allowing for choices. Perhaps the multiple options is what a player would like.

It seems a shame to yank out the Katori training cruisers, because they are neat and unique. Perhaps put them in the ship build...and let players decided to pull them back out of mothballs to use. With their 44 upgrade to super escorts they are great with tanker convoys and early on they make great amphib escorts. However, you have added so many ships I doubt anyone (but me) would make them.

I would like to see an upgrade path developed a little more for cruiser/float planes like Mogami to be used as a deep merchant raider or scout. And a few more squadrons capable of switching into Float Fighters, Float Dive Bombers and Float Torpedo Bombers.

I doubt the game engine can handle it, but how about an AO and a AS version of a SST?

It seems to me that if Japan is strengthening her Navy...she should also be weakening her ground forces or air force. Perhaps less first and second class divisions, instead they become more like the militia divisions and ground reinforcements have delayed arrival. Perhaps delay some of the new ground force devices...to reflect that resources were prioritized to the Navy.

This, of course, would put Japan in a pickle, but really that is where she should be.[:)]

[John 3rd]

Thought I would bring up the ALTHIST that we have based the changes upon:

The Treaty Mod (Scenario 45)
ALTNAV 1922-1937

The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences to cover the time of 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. It should be noted that no changes are made to any major power from 1937-1941.

The Washington Conference

Secretary of State Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for naval disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. After considerable bickering and pressure being brought to bear, the Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. While maintaining the 5-5-3 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan, there are several new outcomes:

1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or one of the Amagi Class battlecruisers. The Americans carry the day in arguing for the Lexington-Class battlecruisers being completed. They gain the Ranger and Constellation (while scrapping BB Mississippi to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods (while additionally scrapping Royal Sovereign), and Japan completes Amagi-Class Ishitaka.

2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:

a. Two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's) are allowed to be built for further carrier experimentation. The Americans still convert USS Langley and USS Ely to seaplane carriers and they are both then transferred to the Asiatic Fleet.

b. Two BC to CV conversions are still allowed but further treaty tonnage is added for one more CVL to be built by both Japan and USA. The Americans build the USS King’s Mountain (proto-Independence Class) and the Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build IJN Ryukaku (a proto-CVL as well).

3. The Big 3 allow for more research into 'Cruiser' Submarines. The Americans build an additional Argonaut and Narwhal, the Japanese add three Mine Layers, and the French add another Surcouf.


The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930), the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:

1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.

2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. USA adds USS Anchorage and Dallas and Japan begins building their scaled-back Mogami-Cruisers.

3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each to be built in the early-30s. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville, GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi. These hybrids are not true, useful CVLs not are they true, useful cruisers but they have a unique niche in 1941 and ALL of them can be converted into carriers later in 1942.

***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the Mogami Class as 6” CLs.


Reluctant Admiral 8.0 (Scenario 50)
1937-1945

The Reluctant Admiral is a Japanese 'what if' scenario based upon a greater contribution by Adm. Yamamoto Isoroku to the development of the Kaigun in 1936-1941. The premise of the Mod is that Yamamoto exerted a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for a war he didn't want.

He adds two new slipways for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan replacing the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class Battleships with improved Shokaku-Class CVs and a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, two Tone-Class CAs, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions shall make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.

The Japan Naval Air Arm is changed so that everything is staked to the Zero Airframe with a specialization of the Zero into a Land-Based Interceptor as well as CV-Based Fighters. Research and production expansion is achieved by streamlining the air industry (cutting several models) while bringing forward second generation aircraft: Judy, Jill, etc… By great effort the IJNAF deploys nearly all new aircraft on December 7th.

On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.

The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.

Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!

Once war begins RA postulates Yamamoto’s influence upon the wartime Kaigun.

Several more Shokaku CVs are ordered as well as another pair of CAs, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs. First class destroyers are accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Manpower is at a premium within the Fleet so Submarines, Escorts, and ASW forces all see a major retooling reflecting the Japanese quality over quantity belief. Yamamoto chooses the immediately useful projects, large APs converting to CVEs, better 2nd-class destroyers, fast transports and coastal defense fleet.

It should be noted that not all the changes are for the Japanese. RA 6.4+ brings major additions and more choice for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, a French Squadron at Noumea, the use of CLV Charlotte (a Flightdeck Cruiser), a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV, Tangier Class AV, and Cimarron Class AOs into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.


Between the Storms and BTS: Lite
Scenario 50 and 52

Warship Construction AFTER the Treaty Years (Between the Storms: LITE version with Owaris and later construction versus Between the Storms with Yamato and Musashi)

Battleship Question and Decision
After abandoning the Treaty System, great discussion goes into the first new battleships to be built by Japan since the Nagato Class. The choices ends up centering on building two modern, fast conventional battlewagons as opposed to the mighty Yamato-Class. The prohibitive factors of cost and time finally swing the decision to creating the Owari-Class (3x3 16.1" Rifles). While not sounding too exciting this change brings about a very interesting situation. Both Yamato and Musashi required their slipways to be expanded in length. The expansions were hugely expensive and took MONTHS to finish. By building the Owari-Class BBs the Japanese clear these slipways 12-18 months faster. The net result is two modern BBs (28 Knots) join the Kaigun BEFORE Pearl Harbor and their successors (two B-65 Class BCs) are either finished or near complete at war's start.

Two additional Owari-Class Battleships are ordered under the 4th Circle Plan as well.

Command Cruisers
While debate rages on about the new battleship design, a new class of heavy cruiser is initiated. The proposed Tone-Class floatplane CA is discarded for a balanced, more capable cruiser. These large cruisers are better called command cruisers. The Niitaka-Class grows to over 15,000 tonnes and carries 4x3 8" guns, heavy torpedo armament, impressive secondaries, and strong floatplane complements. These fast, rugged cruisers are planned to be a six ship class. The initial two are complete at war's start, a second pair coming in late-1942, and a final pair in 1944.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
<snip>
IDEAS/CHANGES[/b]
1. Up-gun the Mogami’s as was done prior to the war.
2. Allow for Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma, Tama to have multiple upgrade paths: back to CLs, TT Cruisers, or CLAA.
3. Ditto Kitakami, Oi, and Kiso.

I am always a great believer in allowing for choices. Perhaps the multiple options is what a player would like.

I actually like the Mogamis as CL's. I would leave them as they are. Points 2 and 3 are quite interesting, though. I am also a fan of choices for the IJN

[John 3rd]

Biggest problem with Point 2 is that those four CLs are so old, one couldn't do too much with them.

As TT CLs you could probably refit them to hold 3-4 Triple TT launchers on each side (like the RL Kitakamis) and, while still nice to have, that you be about it.

Probably more limited in the AA CL version due to size and hull strength due to their small size and age.

A more interesting idea might be as a 'convoy' leader. They could be modernized and improved to be used as Flagships for important convoys with Amphibs or Tankers/AOs. Could be a germ of an idea there...

[ny59giants]

Biggest problem with Point 2 is that those four CLs are so old, one couldn't do too much with them.

As TT CLs you could probably refit them to hold 3-4 Triple TT launchers on each side (like the RL Kitakamis) and, while still nice to have, that you be about it.

Probably more limited in the AA CL version due to size and hull strength due to their small size and age.

A more interesting idea might be as a 'convoy' leader. They could be modernized and improved to be used as Flagships for important convoys with Amphibs or Tankers/AOs. Could be a germ of an idea there...

Concur with the last point made. Make them AA/ASW CLs designed to offer protection for the fast AOs (I converted most of the fast TKs to AOs to give me operational flexibility at war's beginning). If possible, add a small FP group to each.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Biggest problem with Point 2 is that those four CLs are so old, one couldn't do too much with them.

As TT CLs you could probably refit them to hold 3-4 Triple TT launchers on each side (like the RL Kitakamis) and, while still nice to have, that you be about it.

Probably more limited in the AA CL version due to size and hull strength due to their small size and age.

A more interesting idea might be as a 'convoy' leader. They could be modernized and improved to be used as Flagships for important convoys with Amphibs or Tankers/AOs. Could be a germ of an idea there...

Good ASW platforms are scarce in the DNTK, so yes, that would be a good idea. If, as ny59giants writes, they could also have good AA capability, even better.

[John 3rd]

If you coupled these CLs and the small CSs we created last go round you might have a fairly decent core for four ASW Escort Groups...

A refurbished Light Cruiser with another ship carrying 12 FP plus normal escorts would not be too bad a thing.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.

The Reluctant Admiral is a Japanese 'what if' scenario based upon a greater contribution by Adm. Yamamoto Isoroku to the development of the Kaigun in 1936-1941. The premise of the Mod is that Yamamoto exerted a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for a war he didn't want.

On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.

There is the justification and rationale for downsizing the Japanese Army. Limited resources are piled into the Navy, but at a cost...a weaker and less prepared Army consisting of more Militia style Divisions and fewer grade A and B divisions.

For everything there is a cost.

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If you coupled these CLs and the small CSs we created last go round you might have a fairly decent core for four ASW Escort Groups...

A refurbished Light Cruiser with another ship carrying 12 FP plus normal escorts would not be too bad a thing.

Has anyone ever SEEN anything above a DD conduct an ASW attack in-game? I haven't.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If you coupled these CLs and the small CSs we created last go round you might have a fairly decent core for four ASW Escort Groups...

A refurbished Light Cruiser with another ship carrying 12 FP plus normal escorts would not be too bad a thing.

Has anyone ever SEEN anything above a DD conduct an ASW attack in-game? I haven't.

My IJN Cruisers do.

[DOCUP]

I like the ideas of converting the older IJN CLs into AA/ASW ships. Could the Tenryu's be turned into a TT cruiser similar to the load out of the Kitakami?

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
There is the justification and rationale for downsizing the Japanese Army. Limited resources are piled into the Navy, but at a cost...a weaker and less prepared Army consisting of more Militia style Divisions and fewer grade A and B divisions.

For everything there is a cost.

Perhaps less armored units? Perhaps same number, but under strength or arriving later?

Just my 2 cents.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I like the ideas of converting the older IJN CLs into AA/ASW ships. Could the Tenryu's be turned into a TT cruiser similar to the load out of the Kitakami?

Too small, however, since Kitakami does not start in her TT CL build in the Mod how about we allow all three of that group to do so?

[John 3rd]

Have got tomorrow off so we'll do another batch of modifications and/or changes to things.

Michael--Your status?

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I like the ideas of converting the older IJN CLs into AA/ASW ships. Could the Tenryu's be turned into a TT cruiser similar to the load out of the Kitakami?

Too small, however, since Kitakami does not start in her TT CL build in the Mod how about we allow all three of that group to do so?

IIRC there are 2x Tenryu class and 5x Kuma-class light cruisers, correct?

What if you allow those two classes to have 2-3 1-day (or 0-day if possible, don't know if it is) conversions available on turn one. It could be AA, ASW and/or TT conversions. It would follow the principle of giving the player options, without giving the player more stuff, but without tying those ships down for a considerable period.

Just another crazy idea from your friendly neighborhood JFB.

[John 3rd]

That is an INTERESTING idea.

What do people think about that?