Minesweeping without minesweepers

[jwolf]

Well, I know the saying: any ship can be a minesweeper once. But some ships are specifically designed for this purpose. I admit I don't know how they do this; I assume they have some special equipment for the job. On the other hand, I've seen ordinary destroyers and DEs sweep mines as well. Granted, sometimes they do it the "hard way" but other times they really sweep up small numbers of mines without getting blown up.

Q: How do they do this, since they don't have (??) the kind of equipment a dedicated minesweeper has?

[witpqs]

It's my understanding that some (many?) destroyers did (no idea about currently) carry some equipment. I presume not as much/extensive/advanced as mine sweeping types. No idea about methods without specialized equipment.

In fact, I am struggling to recall some mention I heard of larger ships at some point being equipped with paravanes, but I can't quite recall where I read that reference. I think it was in the book Battleship at War about USS Washington but I am not certain about that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paravane_(water_kite)#Military_applications

Google is yielding info. I'm sure there is much more to be found.
http://historylink101.com/ww2_navy/org/battleship/USSNewMexico/1716.html

[Bullwinkle58]

My impression has always been they use small arms to detonate moored mines that are seen by lookouts. A lot of the water in the Pacific near islands is clear.

[witpqs]

And, more definitively:

https://books.google.com/books?id=PKkCMKsr_nEC&pg=RA1-PA81&lpg=RA1-PA81&dq=paravane+USS+Washington&source=bl&ots=lc7-gP1eqn&sig=VkypRFd-zH4inG54Mpum2EM5VfA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizz8iZ-dvVAhUG-lQKHWVWCKI4ChDoAQgnMAA#v=onepage&q=paravane%20USS%20Washington&f=false

Here is a pic (notice "...paravane gear and external bulges against mines and torpedoes..."):

[Panther Bait]

I believe that DDs and DEs had at least some of the equipment to do minesweeping (paravanes, etc.) but necessarily the training. Plus, DD/DEs were more useful elsewhere. So it might be said that minesweepers were less-capable DEs/patrol boats with some special equipment and training to do a better job at minesweeping, but not so specialized that other vessels couldn't do the task.

Also, many/most dedicated minesweepers had some protection from magnetic mines (substantially non-steel construction and/or degaussing) whereas obviously a DD/DE would not have the same protection.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

I believe that DDs and DEs had at least some of the equipment to do minesweeping (paravanes, etc.) but necessarily the training. Plus, DD/DEs were more useful elsewhere. So it might be said that minesweepers were less-capable DEs/patrol boats with some special equipment and training to do a better job at minesweeping, but not so specialized that other vessels couldn't do the task.

Also, many/most dedicated minesweepers had some protection from magnetic mines (substantially non-steel construction and/or degaussing) whereas obviously a DD/DE would not have the same protection.

The YMS minesweepers, over 500 of them, were wooden. I think at least some of the AMs were too. The DMS I believe were steel.

The problem with sticking paravanes on DDs and CLs and the rest is they are towed from the stern. The vessel has to run over the mine before the paravane comes into play. This is less of an issue with wooden minesweepers, although contact mines still work. Shallow draft in that case is life insurance.

Some modern minesweepers have booms to deploy paravanes off the beams to widen the channel and to give a bit more protection to the sweeper. Think shrimp-trawler-look. I'm again not sure if WWII sweepers used booms.

[inqistor]

I checked it years ago, but I think that any ship with Depth Charges can destroy mines. IIRC the exact quote is "destroy mines", not sweep, like minesweepers.

[JeffroK]

Any ship can be a minesweeper, once.

Proper minesweeping was a skilled trade, look at the large number of Allied small ships designed and their crews trained for that purpose.

[fcooke]

Actually paravanes were streamed from the bow. In almost every Malta convoy a number of DDs would lead the convoy and the nature of the paravanes would cause them to move away from the ship, and the cables would cut mooring lines and then the crew could destroy the now floating mine by rifle or machine gun fire. Off the top of my head (and someone with more knowledge here will show the paucity of my recall skills), I cannot think of an instance where a paravane DD hit a mine on the Malta runs.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Actually paravanes were streamed from the bow. In almost every Malta convoy a number of DDs would lead the convoy and the nature of the paravanes would cause them to move away from the ship, and the cables would cut mooring lines and then the crew could destroy the now floating mine by rifle or machine gun fire. Off the top of my head (and someone with more knowledge here will show the paucity of my recall skills), I cannot think of an instance where a paravane DD hit a mine on the Malta runs.

From what I can find quickly, it appears the RN and the USN might have differed in the location of the paravanes. I found sites that asserted that the DMSes (converted WWI DDs mostly) had stern paravanes in place of DC racks. The stability and performance characteristics made that work as the paravanes needed winches and other gear that was heavy and worked best at the stern. I don't know where the American wooden minesweepers had their sweep gear. The bow makes more safety sense as you say, but there's limited room up there if the ship is going to have any sea-keeping at all.

I can see how vanes could force the body out to the beams to cut cables, but what about contact mines directly in front of the ship? I guess after there was one clear lane you could drive down it and sweep into an adjacent lane on either side. But that first pass to make the cut-in must have been no fun.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Any ship can be a minesweeper, once.

Proper minesweeping was a skilled trade, look at the large number of Allied small ships designed and their crews trained for that purpose.

I cleared a mine with the CA Mogami in my current game. Unfortunately the mine detonated the magazine and Mogami is no more. But it was one less mine that I had to contend with.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Any ship can be a minesweeper, once.

Proper minesweeping was a skilled trade, look at the large number of Allied small ships designed and their crews trained for that purpose.

I cleared a mine with the CA Mogami in my current game. Unfortunately the mine detonated the magazine and Mogami is no more. But it was one less mine that I had to contend with.

Not quite the preferred method.[:-]

[fcooke]

Good points Moose. The Med was a 'relatively' calm body of water, and I don't recall ever reading about Pacific USN DDs using the equipment at all. But if you were going to use paravanes to clear mines, wooden hulls would be better, and as little beam on the ship as possible.....

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Good points Moose. The Med was a 'relatively' calm body of water, and I don't recall ever reading about Pacific USN DDs using the equipment at all. But if you were going to use paravanes to clear mines, wooden hulls would be better, and as little beam on the ship as possible.....

MSs have to be relatively tubby little vessels so that the sweep booms they extend do not smack the water too much in a roll.