MUST HAVE Japanese planes

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PaxMondo
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by PaxMondo »

As Lowpe notes, the 4 aircraft you mention are rarely ever built because they all have significant issues.

Kikka - 2E LB, very short range - 4 hex.

Shusei - VERY short range 1 Hex and lousy armament: 2/30mm (15% or 13% acc)

Karyu - best of this lot, 2x30, 2x20 CL. Short Range, High SR, 2E.


Shinden - 4x30 CL (30% acc).

Ki-83 - nice, but 2E. 2x30, 2x20 CL
Ki-94 - 1E, 2x30, 2x20 Front, new engine = Ha-44


So, because the Shinden, Sam and Ki-83 all use the same engine (Ha-43), these tend to be the selections most often chosen. Shinden and Ki-83 have CL guns, which really makes a difference. They pack a big punch. These are all HIGH SR planes ...
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ny59giants
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ny59giants »

Here is my R&D efforts as of end of March 42 as the Helens just started production 4 days head of schedule. [;)] I'm listing just those airframes that have more than one factory devoted to that line. This is BTS Lite, so no Jack. Let me know if you think a plane should have more factories as obsolete planes stop production in the months ahead.

Sam - 7
Jill - 2
Grace - 2
Judy - 3
Shinden - 3
Tsurugi - 2
Tojo - 4
Helen - 2
Tony - 3
Peggy - 3
Ki-83 - 2
Frank - 10
Ki-92-II - 2
George - 6
Frances - 4
Toka - 2
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Lowpe
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by Lowpe »

Irving -S needs two.

Shinden should be 5...3 is too slow. No Oscar or A6M line?

Ki94-II[:D]

Is that the CV George?
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ny59giants
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ny59giants »

Here are my fighters in production along with R&D

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rustysi
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by rustysi »

Your playing a mod so I'm not sure if there's a difference, but I don't produce the first Helen. The Sally is actually a bit better. More range I think. I wait for the HellenIIa. As for the rest it looks like you're skipping models and I follow the 'wire chart' that I have for A/C advancement.
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ElvisDaKing
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ElvisDaKing »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I also do not agree on Ann with Lowpe, this is a good plane for small airfields. I started to build some of it. But my previous experience was vs. AI, so guess you need to totally scrap any "doubtful" plane in a PBM to have a chance. But the Ann can also fly asw, so.....range 4 on max. Sonia only range 3 (asw range is halved) also 50kg bombs do nothing to subs.

I said Ann or Mary. Pick one, and for me it would be the Ann but others have chosen the Mary.[;)]

Mary uses an old engine, one can make these to use the old ones up. Mary has also only 3 hex range for asw. But you need to send 1000 for every point. If Mary is worth it....



PDU ON, SC 1
At start of campaign, I produce Ki57 I Topsy using Ha-5 engine pool...
When engine pool is exhausted, I don t upgrade to Ki 57 II Topsy, Ha-31 engine, as it is very similar to Ki-57 I Topsy, keeping Ha-31 production low only for Ki-46 II Dinah

So, early march 42, having most of my IJA transport squadrons equipped with Topsy and 30+ in reserve, I switch production to Ki-32 Mary , using Early Kawasaki engine with 80+ in pool...

Ki-32 Mary is much better than Ki-51 Sonia and can be also used for ASW despite short legs, but with its 250 kgs bomb, it can be a sub killer if something came close enough...

I resume IJA transport production with Ki-49 K Helen mid 43 which has much greater capacity than Topsy.

Still have to figure out what to do with this production lane when kawazaki engine pool run dry, as Ki-49 K Helen will only be available much later..?
'To my point, in war, there s just one attractive thing : the victory Parade... What sucks, it s all the things before.... We should get the enlist payroll and do the parade right away, before that it get totally screwed up'
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk
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ElvisDaKing
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ElvisDaKing »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: Shark7
Taking ALL things into consideration which is better Sally or Helen?
And by all things, I mean engine production, durability, usability, etc.
Does it even matter with these two? I am truly undecided still.
Is there any a question? Armor + 1 more hex of range + more defensive guns = Helen. You might even be able to get Helen-IIb earlier than Sally-IIb because of the handy chain of research
You might have problems with Ha-34 in the scenarios where Tojo uses same engine if you overproduce the fighter, but that's what planning is for.

Agreed
I produce Ki-21 Sally until Ki-49 II Helen become available.
I have 3 R&D Ki-49 I Helen when starting campaign and will pursue research until Ki-49 II Helen.
When available, I change my 2 Ki-21 production lanes to Ki-49 II and transform 1 R&D to production factory, so I can use remaining 2 R&D for another plane.
I intend to produce 100/120 Ki-49 II Helen per month as it will be my IJA bomber until end of the war...
I don't plan to produce Ki-67 Peggy as it has less bomb load than Ki-49 Helen (Peggy 3x250kgs vs 4x250kgs for Helen), and its SR is 3 vs 2 for Helen...

Don t forget that Ki-49 K Helen (transport) is also using Ha-34 engine.
So need to plan production accordingly
120 x Ki-44
120 x Ki-49 II
30 x Ki-49 K
=> Ha-34 = 420 engines/month
'To my point, in war, there s just one attractive thing : the victory Parade... What sucks, it s all the things before.... We should get the enlist payroll and do the parade right away, before that it get totally screwed up'
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk
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ElvisDaKing
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ElvisDaKing »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I'm building--for late-war fighters--ALL of the A7 Sam for IJN and working to get to the Frank-r for the army. We're having this conversation in my AAR presently.

On the subject of army bombers I am about to get (March 44) the Peggy with Torp. Cannot wait! My army bombers groups are in good shape so I WANT to have this plane.


Trouble s it takes 4 months to train the pilots! [:D]

..and 1 minute to be killed by enemy CAP.

I don t believe that it worth the investment as training will be too long for almost no success.
I let the anti shipping role to IJN with its own late war torpedo bombers (P1Y2 Frances)

For IJA late war anti shipping bomber, I would invest R&D on the fast Ki-115a Tsurugi and its 800kg bomb instead of Ki-67 T Peggy, which will make also a great kamikaze plane ;)


'To my point, in war, there s just one attractive thing : the victory Parade... What sucks, it s all the things before.... We should get the enlist payroll and do the parade right away, before that it get totally screwed up'
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
For IJA late war anti shipping bomber, I would invest R&D on the fast Ki-115a Tsurugi and its 800kg bomb instead of Ki-67 T Peggy, which will make also a great kamikaze plane ;)

Which is no surprise since the Ki-115a Tsurugi has been conceived for that specific purpose - it was a dedicated Kamikaze aircraft [;)]
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ny59giants
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ny59giants »

Sally vs Helen - The second Helen (IIa) gets armor in 8/42. The third Helen IIb in 8/43 gets an increase in range 11/13 to be one greater than the Sally. The main reason I go with the Helen is the armor...survivability!
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Lokasenna
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Sally vs Helen - The second Helen (IIa) gets armor in 8/42. The third Helen IIb in 8/43 gets an increase in range 11/13 to be one greater than the Sally. The main reason I go with the Helen is the armor...survivability!

And the first Helen gets MAD in 11/44.
InfiniteMonkey
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by InfiniteMonkey »

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
PDU ON, SC 1
At start of campaign, I produce Ki57 I Topsy using Ha-5 engine pool...
When engine pool is exhausted, I don t upgrade to Ki 57 II Topsy, Ha-31 engine, as it is very similar to Ki-57 I Topsy, keeping Ha-31 production low only for Ki-46 II Dinah
There are enough engines in the pool to build out your DinahII's and Dinah III changes engines in 12/42.
ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
So, early march 42, having most of my IJA transport squadrons equipped with Topsy and 30+ in reserve, I switch production to Ki-32 Mary , using Early Kawasaki engine with 80+ in pool...

Ki-32 Mary is much better than Ki-51 Sonia and can be also used for ASW despite short legs, but with its 250 kgs bomb, it can be a sub killer if something came close enough...
Skip building IJA light bombers completely and upgrade them to Ki-45's when those become available. Ki-45's are superior in range, bomb load, survivability (armor and durability), speed, etc. to all IJA light bombers. Only the Ki-48 has an advantage over it (range). It can also double as a heavy CAP fighter with appropriate pilots.
ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
I resume IJA transport production with Ki-49 K Helen mid 43 which has much greater capacity than Topsy.
Because of the way that transport aircraft are handled, the capacity is the same. Transport aircraft transport max load / 2000. Fractions are ignored and only the whole number is used. There is also a minimum moved of 1 supply.

Ki-49-II KAI max load = 3500/2000 = 1.75, moves 1 supply.
Ki-54c max load = 1058/2000 = ~0.5 = minimum of 1.

Both will deliver 1 supply per mission.

See michaelm's post at tm.asp?m=2483507

Your only concern with IJA transports are

1) How far can you send it? (Note: 50% of ferry range is max range for base to base supply delivery)
2) How many and what engines does it use? (production management)
3) Is is significantly more durable / ammored? (reduced operational losses)


InfiniteMonkey
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by InfiniteMonkey »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Sally vs Helen - The second Helen (IIa) gets armor in 8/42. The third Helen IIb in 8/43 gets an increase in range 11/13 to be one greater than the Sally. The main reason I go with the Helen is the armor...survivability!

And the first Helen gets MAD in 11/44.
Since we all know there is no way Japan can get EVEN in late 44, all there is left is to be MAD.
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ny59giants
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ny59giants »

Selfish bump.... I'm in late '42 and need to double check some things.
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ny59giants
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ny59giants »

I'm now in mid-Oct '42 vs Gen Patton in latest version of BTS Lite. John 3rd and I had the A6 Zero have the M2 go to M5 and beyond for CVs. There was a land based model (M3 and M4). However, I've advanced the George to start production in Nov '42. So in the next version, we will eliminate the land based Zero since George comes in Fall '42. Thus, in my current version, I have a few factories no longer producing and need to be changed over. The question is to what?? Due to KB being 4-0 in battles to date (3 American CVs sunk off New Caledonia), I "may" see late '45. [8D] Do I need to focus R&D on 45/46 models?? Here is what I currently have.....

A7M3 Sam x1 due 9/45
C6N1-S Myrt x1 due 5/45
J6M1 x1 due 9/45
J7W1 x5 due 12/45
Ki-102a Randy x1 due 2/45
Ki-102c Randy x1 due 9/45
Ki-115a Tsurugi x2 due 6/45
Ki-83 x2 due 9/45
Ki-84b Frank x1 due 3/45
Ki-84r Frank x1 due 12/45
Ki-94-II x2 due 2/46
Kikka x1 due 1/46
Toka x2 due 12/45
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PaxMondo
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by PaxMondo »

OK, not familiar with this mod, but in stock (you'll have to translate):

If you think you will still have CV's, then A7M is a must. A7M can hold up against F6F. short legs though.

Frank r is a must. It is your mainstay for the IJA.

Then you have some choices to make:

IJN: J7W does work, but short legs. pretty effective though if you can get it in numbers.

IJA: Ki-83 is a nice plane, good range, decent armament. 2E though. Ki-94 is also good, armament isn't great, but speed is good and 1E. Trade-off. I generally like 2 for 1 in terms of cost, but that's me.

Ki-201 is a unique choice: if you go after it, you have to go BIG. High SR means it takes +6 weeks for groups to convert, so you have to really plan this one out. BUT, once in play if in numbers, it will dominate the day skies. You've got to have numbers though (when you can put ~500 of these into the air over a target, you won't believe the impact they have, they simply decimate attacks), and you cannot move these groups much. I.E. you really have to be experienced working with high SR planes. One oops and you can have the entire group sitting for 2 months or more.
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PaxMondo
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by PaxMondo »

Randy 102C is you NF. period. You cannot have enough of them, especially if you are effective in stopping the allied daylight bombing, he will quickly revert to night bombing. You will want every group that you can find to convert to NF converted and then flying the 102C ...

The IJN NF air groups are not nearly as effective as they don't have nearly as good a plane. None of them are armored, they all take high losses, most are too slow to catch B29's. [:@] I generally choose between either the C6N (1E, fastest but frail) or the S1A1 (heavy arm, durable, but 2E and just barely faster than B29) with the C6N usually winning out for me. The lower SR and lower cost lets me replace losses easier and shift the units around faster.
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Lokasenna
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm now in mid-Oct '42 vs Gen Patton in latest version of BTS Lite. John 3rd and I had the A6 Zero have the M2 go to M5 and beyond for CVs. There was a land based model (M3 and M4). However, I've advanced the George to start production in Nov '42. So in the next version, we will eliminate the land based Zero since George comes in Fall '42. Thus, in my current version, I have a few factories no longer producing and need to be changed over. The question is to what?? Due to KB being 4-0 in battles to date (3 American CVs sunk off New Caledonia), I "may" see late '45. [8D] Do I need to focus R&D on 45/46 models?? Here is what I currently have.....

A7M3 Sam x1 due 9/45
C6N1-S Myrt x1 due 5/45
J6M1 x1 due 9/45
J7W1 x5 due 12/45
Ki-102a Randy x1 due 2/45
Ki-102c Randy x1 due 9/45
Ki-115a Tsurugi x2 due 6/45
Ki-83 x2 due 9/45
Ki-84b Frank x1 due 3/45
Ki-84r Frank x1 due 12/45
Ki-94-II x2 due 2/46
Kikka x1 due 1/46
Toka x2 due 12/45

You have more Shinden factories than Franks? You need more Franks.

Kikka in particular does not seem worthwhile to me - it's either a fast bomber with 1 800kg bomb (and isn't a dive bomber) or an expensive kamikaze (2 engines = 4x the cost). Toka also doesn't seem useful to me. But if you want them, go for it.

Keep in mind that as some of your new models come online, you'll have little or no use for older models like the Oscar or even Tojo. With 2x Ki-83 factories, you might get that in late 1944. I'd try for sooner if you can. I'd also try for sooner on the A7M2 Sam - whichever your CV fighter is.
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ny59giants
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by ny59giants »

I only listed models with due dates in 45/46. I have many factories on Sam and Frank, but the first versions of them. I'm asking if I need more for any of these late models I've listed.
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Lokasenna
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RE: MUST HAVE Japanese planes

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I only listed models with due dates in 45/46. I have many factories on Sam and Frank, but the first versions of them. I'm asking if I need more for any of these late models I've listed.

If you're currently researching Frank-a, why do you have a Frank-r factory? That's where I got confused.

If you're asking "I've got extra factories, or could. Where should I put them?"... then from your list, I'd pick the Ki-83 first as you already have 5 Shinden factories. Or the Ki-94, but it uses a unique engine vs. the Ki-83 not using a unique engine.

If it's only 2 factories, I'd go +1 Ki-83 and +1 Ki-102c. If it's 3 factories, I'd go +1 Ki-83 and +2 Ki-102c. If it's 4 or more, I'd go with +2 to each of those and then maybe the next one on my list would be the Ki-94.

I'm not familiar with the J6M1. Is it a super-Jack?
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