Anyone interested in the Chinese aspects of the war

[RogerJNeilson]

Nanjing 1937: Battle for a Doomed City by Peter Harmsen

Just finished reading this, gives an amazing glimpse into the realities of the conflict in 1937 and therefore by implication the nature of the war in our game. Makes a nonsense of the ability of the Japanese to 'conquer' China.


Roger

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Nanjing 1937: Battle for a Doomed City by Peter Harmsen

Just finished reading this, gives an amazing glimpse into the realities of the conflict in 1937 and therefore by implication the nature of the war in our game. Makes a nonsense of the ability of the Japanese to 'conquer' China.


Roger

I haven't read much detail of the battles, but my general understanding is that the Chinese committed a large number of troops to a suicide mission to make the Japanese pay for the conquest of Nanking. The Japanese were initially repulsed and then came back and took the city. They were so angry at their losses and the Chinese daring that they let their soldiers take it out on civilians - the "Rape of Nanking" reported in Western newspapers. I don't know if Japanese atrocities were common before Nanking, but after that battle they seemed to be the norm.

[RogerJNeilson]

I found the book very interesting. Key points I took from it were:

1. The Japanese did not want to destabilise China, but merely to make it come to 'heel' as subordinate to Japan and they were terrified of it breaking into smaller, ungovernable regions
2. Chinese defences were often very high quality, though some suffered from corruption and all that entails, but they were masters of concrete pillboxes, entrenchments and beaten fire machine gun alignment.
3. Some for their forces were significantly superior to Japanese forces at the time - they were sacrificed because Chiang wanted to make the point that the Chinese population was an endless supply of manpower so it did not matter if they lost quantities of men that any other nation would not contemplate. What they did suffer from and this often hampered their activities, was the desire to preserve their quality equipment - at times not even using their artillery as they did not want it damaged
4. There was a massive split in the Japanese command over whether even to move as far as Nanking - may regarded it as too far into the interior and not sustainable.
5. The explanation of why the brutality of the rape of the city is complex and has a number of factors - in part it presages the atrocities witnessed on the Eastern front
6. Many Chinese forces could not even speak the same language as their adjoining support troops....
7, Chiang quite liked to have troops from one of his Warlords wiped out..... some were deliberately sent to Nanking for this reason.....

A very readable and very well researched book..

Roger

[geofflambert]

I read Barbara Tuchman's book on Stilwell. He was rather positively impressed with the Red Chinese troops compared to the Nationalist troops. He would have liked to be more involved with them and supplying them etc. than he was allowed to be.

[rustysi]

Thanks Roger.

[geofflambert]

It made me wonder if the Reds are underrepresented in the game. I've taken it to be that the calculation was to represent their strength through the garrison requirements, which are rather stiff.

[rustysi]

It made me wonder if the Reds are underrepresented in the game.

During the war Chiang was against too large an increase in the number of 'Red' units, and he was nominally in charge. I don't think there was too much effort on the Communist part to oppose such thinking, as to me at least, they were looking to the future. China was still pretty much a fractured nation at this time. Read Forgotten Ally, for a better picture.

[adarbrauner]

In any case the land combat model of the game is underdeveloped and primitive.

[sanderz]

check out the Big B mod for a much more challenging china (as well as some other interesting changes)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4235002

here's his bit about the china changes

CHINA:
China has undergone major changes. Supply has been significantly increased (comparison
figures proved below), many new locations have been added (borrowed from RHS). Also
borrowed from RHS has been the enlargement of a specific HQ unit type – Group Army.
Support has been increased to match RHS level.

Disablement of Chinese units has been reduced to approximately the 25% level.
Also included in this update is a re-definition (OOB-wise) of Chiangs Central Army.
The stock model is a 9 Division Corps for all Chinese Corps (much depleted).
Chinese Central Army units are modeled for a 6 Div Corps, (about 84 Divs in all, which
matches the historical size of the Central Army) - substantially better trained and led (all the
officers were Whampoa Military Academy trained), filled out and equipped based close to
German trained and equipped standards (though smaller divisions in scale – still around
5,000 men per Div, as were all Chinese Divisions,and fewer machineguns). They also include
a battery of 150mm Mortars (the largest weapon mass-produced in China at the time), and
finally some inherent AA capability, as well as recon troops, (one company per Corps),
remember – these are Corps Level formations – NOT Divisions.

The final result is a China with a three-tired Army.
At the top is a substantial Chinese Central Army (14 Corps...all units well led, trained and
equipped, and very formidable).

Next, stock based run of the mill large(9 Div)corps (all very much under-strength),
representing the Regional Army Units of China (a good many are static – see further down).
At the bottom will be a large number of Chinese Warlord units - ALL static (independent of

the orders of the KMT central government, and therefore static, holding their own territory)
The quality of Chinese Cavalry has been upgraded in experience and morale (not equipment)
after study of combat operations reports by US Army mission in China during the war years.
Last, all this new strength has been balanced by making a significant portion of standard
Chinese Army Corps static.
The purpose of this is to recreate the political situation that existed, namely that Chiang Kai-
sheks government did not exercise complete direct control over many regional forces in
China, only the KMT Central Army was actually under direct control.
In addition, the garrison requirement cost for both sides in Nationalist China has been
uniformly increased. For the Chinese it will simulate the unwillingness of the warlords to send
their personal troops outside their local provinces and control. And for Japan it will simulate
the (currently all but non-existent in Stock) huge guerrilla war they faced. That meant every
inch of their controlled Cities and rail lines needed front line troops garrisoning them and
patrolling them.

The effect is to make China stronger, yet not able to expel the Japanese single handedly from
China...
Yet at the same time, enough Chinese force will be available to defeat the Japanese in China
– should the Japanese pull too many units out of theater for deployment outside of China.
This should recreate the stalemate that was China throughout most of the war.

[Lovejoy]

If I recall correctly, some of the best Chinese troops were trained by German military advisors and equipped with German armaments (Herr Hitler was hedging his bets, as he wasn't sure if he wanted to court Japan as an ally, or the Nationalists). However most of these units were lost during the Battle of Shanghai in 1937 because Chiang Kai-Shek felt that the only way to win international support from UK, US, and France was to demonstrate that, if properly equipped and trained, Chinese troops could stand up to Japanese troops.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

It made me wonder if the Reds are underrepresented in the game. I've taken it to be that the calculation was to represent their strength through the garrison requirements, which are rather stiff.

I love Tuchman and her books but you must remember that we are talking about material and sources that are 40 years old and written during the height of the cold war. Many sources just were not available. According to more modern sources it is estimated that 97% of all wartime casualties were suffered by Nationalist Troops whereas only 3% were suffered by Red Chinese. To put it simply, the Reds opted to stay out of the fighting for various reasons. Statements of Red Chinese prowess during the war are mostly myth.

In my campaign, I moved the 8th route army to India and rebuilt it into a powerhouse unit. But AE has a lot of fantasy aspects to it. [;)]

[Skyros]

A couple of good books.

Shanghai 1937 Stalingrad on the Yangtze by Peter Harmsen 2013

The Wars for Asia, 1911 - 1949 by S.C.M. Paine 2012

[riflebrigade]

Several years ago I purchased "History of the Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945" 642 pages, 49 coloured maps of troop movements, printed in the Republic of China.

Second Edition printed 1972, probably biased but contains massive amounts of information on actual units involved in each battle and the maps are also very detailed showing troop movements.

Book Parts Cover: -
Preface (1 page), Contents (10 pages), Photos (14 pages), Introduction (pages 1 to 2), Causes of War (pages 3 to 4), Political Warfare (pages 5 to 60), Economic Warfare (pages 61 to 110), Cultural Warfare (pages 111 to 154), Military Operations (pages 135 to 534), An Account of Communist Sabotage of the War of Resistance (pages 535 to 550), Sino-US Cooperation (pages 551 to 556) , Surrender and Demobilisation (pages 557 to 574), Conclusion (pages 575 to 578), Reference Books of the History of the Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945 (pages 579 to 584, Index (pages 585 to 642), Maps at back of book (49).

[jiajia1]

It made me wonder if the Reds are underrepresented in the game. I've taken it to be that the calculation was to represent their strength through the garrison requirements, which are rather stiff.

You are right. Red army played the main role in North China. But you will not find many books in English about it. The "Hundred Regiments Offensive" happened from Aug to Oct in 1940. 105 regiments (200k troops) with even more partisans VS North China Area Army (NCAA) + NCPC. Both sides suffered great loss. After the battle, KMT and red army started to attack each other obviously KMT did not want red army to expand. Later in Jan 1941, KMT ambushed the New Fourth Army (7000 casualties). So on Dec 7 1941, basically Japanese, KMT and red army are 3 hostile strengths.

It is impossible to reflect this historical situation in the game with the last update coming soon. I would suggest the 3 red army divisions use a different formation: much more squads, none art, less eng/support and reduce Yenan supply/day so they have to get supply from capturing enemy bases like they did in history and must not mix with KMT troops.