GD1938 Game 24

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ironduke1955
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ironduke1955 »

Well possibly not but this game has a tough line up of players, there is not one player in the line up that I would not describe as at the very least good and we are having a excellent game, now if you were honest you would admit that you are the weakest player by far in the group no disgrace in that and I have always given you credit as someone who is willing to have a go, trouble is the US is technically the most difficult power to play that places pressure on the player, and being willing to have a go is not enough you really have to be a master of not just the basic rules of ATG but the variations that apply to GD1938, I have rated you as a beginner on the GD1938 player rating I would say you are in a game with just to many Good players, and your hitting out at other players because the pressure is getting to you, its why I feel we need a rating system for these games, so these miss matches do not occur and players can enjoy the game without feeling that they have been taken down a back alley and had the crap kicked out of them.
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LJBurstyn
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by LJBurstyn »

I have requested the password for the USA so that I might continue the conflict as commander of the USA as a USA player...not as the Japanese player. My first act if I get the password would be to return ALL the Japanese held land that belongs to the USA to the USA.

This also reestablishes the idea that one nation cannot give to another nation land that would give them a victory condition.
falco148
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by falco148 »

ORIGINAL: ironduke1955

Well possibly not but this game has a tough line up of players, there is not one player in the line up that I would not describe as at the very least good and we are having a excellent game, now if you were honest you would admit that you are the weakest player by far in the group no disgrace in that and I have always given you credit as someone who is willing to have a go, trouble is the US is technically the most difficult power to play that places pressure on the player, and being willing to have a go is not enough you really have to be a master of not just the basic rules of ATG but the variations that apply to GD1938, I have rated you as a beginner on the GD1938 player rating I would say you are in a game with just to many Good players, and your hitting out at other players because the pressure is getting to you, its why I feel we need a rating system for these games, so these miss matches do not occur and players can enjoy the game without feeling that they have been taken down a back alley and had the crap kicked out of them.


Jesus. I thought you would respond with some pompous claptrap and mate you didnt let me down.

Who are all these other players that I'm 'hitting out'at? Just you.....thats who. What is this pressure u refer to? We had hardly started the game. I was under no pressure whatsoever. What I did object to is being TOLD WHAT TO DO. Does that register with you?.....some people dont like being told what to do, even if they are allies in an internet, multi-player strategy game.

As for your 'rating' of me, mate I really couldnt give a damn what someone like you, who obviously has nothing else going on in his life, thinks of my ability to play a relatively obscure internet computer game.

You take your 'rating' and stick it where the sun dont shine.'






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ironduke1955
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ironduke1955 »

LOL well
obscure internet computer game.
obviously has nothing else going on in his life
you do know you are playing as well right[:D]
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Bombur
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by Bombur »

This was a genuine oversight on my part. The 'Fleet'(actually a motley collection of S.American pre-WW2 battleships, cruisers and destroyers) were based at the Azores, at the request of the British. I simply forgot about them in my anger when I declared war on the British. The more modern US ships had been sent over to the Pacific for the planned assault on Archangelsk/Murmsk.


It means that you had no more fleet in the Atlantic.....helps to explain why the Canadian fleet retreated without being disturbed (except by small skirmish with the Colombian Navy). Remember what I told about the German navy being able to cross the Atlantic?



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baloo7777
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by baloo7777 »

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

I have requested the password for the USA so that I might continue the conflict as commander of the USA as a USA player...not as the Japanese player. My first act if I get the password would be to return ALL the Japanese held land that belongs to the USA to the USA.

This also reestablishes the idea that one nation cannot give to another nation land that would give them a victory condition.

Just wondering... are you playing Japan also... or is someone else?
JRR
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by falco148 »

Remember what I told about the German navy being able to cross the Atlantic?

Well I stopped listening to anything u had to say a long time ago but for your information there are still naval forces in South America as well as carriers on the east coast.
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Bombur
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by Bombur »


Well I stopped listening to anything u had to say a long time ago but for your information there are still naval forces in South America as well as carriers on the east coast.


And you still allowed the Kriegsmarine to cross the Atlantic?????? Are you sure you understand the game rules?
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by LJBurstyn »

I am currently playing only Japan...hopefully I will be getting the USA password so I can play them as a US player not as Japan. If he (Falco) gives me the password I will be returning all territory back to the USA (except maybe some of the overseas areas controlled by the USA) but all USA troops will be returned to the USA.

This note is to remind everyone I will be gone from Aug 13th to Aug 25 to see the eclipse. Hopefully this will not put too much a dent in the game.
falco148
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by falco148 »

ORIGINAL: Bombur


Well I stopped listening to anything u had to say a long time ago but for your information there are still naval forces in South America as well as carriers on the east coast.


And you still allowed the Kriegsmarine to cross the Atlantic?????? Are you sure you understand the game rules?


Mate, I'm really getting tired of this infantile tit-for-tat bulls#*t. Let me remind you one more time. It was YOUR shoddy play that let the Germans gain such easy access to the N.American east coast in the first place, not mine.

As for understanding the game rules. This is a very complex game. I'm pretty sure I play within the rules though because the AI and computer code wouldnt let me do otherwise. I've never actually sat down and made a study of the rules however.......have you?



falco148
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by falco148 »

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

I am currently playing only Japan...hopefully I will be getting the USA password so I can play them as a US player not as Japan. If he (Falco) gives me the password I will be returning all territory back to the USA (except maybe some of the overseas areas controlled by the USA) but all USA troops will be returned to the USA.

This note is to remind everyone I will be gone from Aug 13th to Aug 25 to see the eclipse. Hopefully this will not put too much a dent in the game.


Password coming up Larry.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ernieschwitz »

As for understanding the game rules. This is a very complex game. I'm pretty sure I play within the rules though because the AI and computer code wouldnt let me do otherwise. I've never actually sat down and made a study of the rules however.......have you?

Actually he has. He helped me formulate them, and we agreed on them. So I'd say he actually does have a great understanding of the rules.

As for the portion you can read, last time I checked, and I did check, cause I wanted to see if the rules could be explained better in a word file, they took up 14 pages in a word document, after editing out some extra lines.

There are some usual house rules, but I couldn't see those from the first page of this thread.

Also the game works best, IMHO, as a WWIIish simulation. Once you go off that part of the reservation, all deals are off.
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falco148
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by falco148 »

Well, could you be a bit more specific? Which rules are you referring to......? GD38 rules? ATG rules...?
As for the portion you can read

Not sure which portion your referring to here.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ernieschwitz »

I believe you are a sentient being, and that you will figure this out eventually :)
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by falco148 »

If you have something to say, spit it out and stop being so cryptic.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ernieschwitz »

I didn't believe I was being cryptic. I was actually giving you the compliment that you would be able to figure it out on your own.

Regarding Rules, there are three types:

Game Engine Rules(the ones that people refer to as ATG rules), and those are best thought of as a set of parameters that can be switched on and off, or perhaps more apt as the dice in any game that has to deal with dices as its main component, Yatzy comes to mind, but there are others. Victor Reijkers (Vic) wrote these (and Bombur was a Beta tester on that).

Game Rules(the ones people refer to as GD1938 rules), and those are best thought of as the rules of the dice game you are playing. Yatzy just wouldn't be Yatzy without the rules making up the game. Since ATG is marketed as among other things a "wargaming contruction set", that means mostly everything is modable, within the ATG rules. So some of what you think are rules that belong to ATG, are perhaps actually rules that can be modified, and thus become Game Rules. Bombur and I made those rules, in some cases asking Vic to make additions to the modable part of the rules, to get things done. And these are btw the 14 pages I was refering to, that make up the scenario intro.

Unspoken Rules (the ones people usually refer to as house rules, or convention), these make up a lot of rules, that I am not going to mention all of. Prime examples would be things like: You don't play the game to purposely lose it. Some might even expand that rule to: You don't play the game to make others win it. Another rule would be that you don't attack a minor you would end up controlling with a power you also play... etc.

Obviously you cannot break the rules of 1 or 2, but that does not mean that you cannot behave in a way not thought of as sportsmanlike. Playing the game only following 1 and 2, is bound to make some people unhappy. Note that the last example in the unspoken rules is a house rule that is needed since there is no way to know which player controls what countries. You can play this way, and not break rules 1 or 2, but it is obviously not meant to be played that way.

Basically what Bombur is telling you is you are not behaving according to the unspoken rules. Now they do not say you need to be allies with Great Britain, but they do say that you will only win if you are part of the winning coalition, and then only get a minor victory, unless you own 33% of the worlds Victory Points. If you are not playing to win, you are obviously breaking an unspoken rule.

Then again I have a feeling this game is one of those that went well off the reservation, with the liberties taken by each major. Not an accusation, but an observation. Those games always seem to set people off sooner or later.





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ironduke1955
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ironduke1955 »

Technical question if I am at peace with a major power, and that major power has a fleet screened by subs is it acceptable for me to move a load of subs on to that fleet, bypassing the screen, then I declare war and as that fleet cannot now retreat as we are both stacked together, it is completely destroyed for little loss with no survivors. Is this not a exploit of the rules that apply to units that are stacked together and become belligerent nations. If have done this do you think I should play the turn again and declare war first then play the turn in a conventional manner. Thoughts please??
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cpdeyoung
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by cpdeyoung »

A slight variant.

If a nation is at peace, perhaps a dicey peace, but peace, and secretly moves a powerful carrier task force to a naval base, and executes a nearly flawless carrier based air attack on this most important naval base of another nation, shortly after a declaration of war was delivered many miles away.

Shouldn't the offending nation be compelled to make peace, and help re-float the sunken battleships?

================

Personally I am always terrified when potential enemies have fleets near mine. I move fleets to safety, especially carriers, using a shoot and scoot method. I hide my British ships from the Italians for example when the Italians are at peace. Surprise attacks are a misery, but Port Arthur and Pearl Harbor happened when the "peace" was shattered. I am sure you knew there was a danger the Germans would attack. Technically this sort of attack can result in an attackers loss as well as defenders loss. You are correct that one side must be eliminated, but it could have been me.

I am sure the lesson has been learned and this sort of surprise attack will not be common in the future as care will be taken. There are steps a fleet can take to prevent this sort of attack.

================

I know you expected me to defend my attack. I really have taken care to make such an attack on my forces difficult for many games now.

I have respect for your fine play. I could have chosen Larry to attack, but just as at Pearl Harbor the target was compelling.

Chuck
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ernieschwitz
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ernieschwitz »

ORIGINAL: ironduke1955

Technical question if I am at peace with a major power, and that major power has a fleet screened by subs is it acceptable for me to move a load of subs on to that fleet, bypassing the screen, then I declare war and as that fleet cannot now retreat as we are both stacked together, it is completely destroyed for little loss with no survivors. Is this not a exploit of the rules that apply to units that are stacked together and become belligerent nations. If have done this do you think I should play the turn again and declare war first then play the turn in a conventional manner. Thoughts please??

Interesting way of attacking a fleet. Not sure it is intended that way. You will have to ask Vic if this is WAD. Heh, I like the sound of that line. :)

The advent of the rule that made it possible for neutral nations to move forces into other neutral forces sea hexes, is my doing. I played a game once, when the rule did not exist, and made a screen of subs, that prevented the other player from attacking my coastline. Vic considered this an exploit. I still think it was good gaming :) If not a bit unrealistic though.

If I was to make the rules, I'd make it so that the units attacked this way, had a chance to flee to open sea hexes. There is however a rulevar that makes attacking ports less favorable. Ships anchored there get a port defense modifier.

In any case, my example shows that if something is found not to be WAD then Vic will correct, if he is given a heads up.
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ironduke1955
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RE: GD1938 Game 24

Post by ironduke1955 »

Thanks Chuck and ernieschwitz
I think we should end this game and hand victory to the German/Italy/Soviet coalition. They played a great game, and, more important, they did good diplomacy. I don´t know how the Chinese/Japanese/USA coalition can win if the USA is given to Japan (I tried to explain a thousand times to falco that it results in a HUGE decrease in production rates). It´s also difficult to go back to USA´s turn, given the big victory obtained by the German forces in this naval battle. An alternative is to have Japan give back the USA assets to its original owner. GB will be soon reduced to Australia and I cannot do any alliance because the USA is at war with me (a war that was useless to him, unless he wanted to invite the Germans to America. I´m sorry that my bad diplomacy helped to ruin what would be an epic game. As ironduke said, the row is 50% my fault. I never wanted to break my alliance with the USA, but was really upset that he not only refused to play any role in the war but also that he was unable to pay attention to what his allies said.

I tend to think now that Bombur was correct in his assessment. Congrats to Germans Italians and Soviets.
Vic considered this an exploit
perhaps Vic will look at this in the future.
You are correct that one side must be eliminated, but it could have been me.


Yes thanks Chuck but you may not have noticed that your U-Boats have very high experience levels from previous combat in the Atlantic they were never going to be the retreating force.

And you will appreciate that the screening forces would not have waved the attacking forces through the picket lines, with war imminent with Germany they would have done their job to screen the fleet. Perhaps a rule that DOW be made at the beginning of the turn before advantage can be extracted.
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