Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund)

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

ORIGINAL:The Mig3 is indeed the best early war fighter the Sovs have. What it also has is good high altitude performance. I don't know if it is used by the engine though. In any case, nothing the Sovs have can beat an bf109 F4 in expert hands. It's probably due to my mishandling of my airforce, but I find the Sovs a bit to good in the air.
There's a lot more to come [;)]

Actually, if you want to dive a bit deeper into the historical air battles in the East, try the series by Christer Bergström.
In short: the Russian pilots were so inexperienced they where sent to the front after only 4-5 hours flying time. Compare this to Navy Seals fighting conscripts who haven't fired a shot before being put to the front. Guess who wins [:D]

I have far less eastern front knowledge than many here. But the air war follows the same pattern as the ground war: Axis players aren't as stupid as Hitler and Soviet players not as stupid as Stalin. The only important thing is that there is no strategy that can't be countered. 5 hours pilots are 30 morale 30 exp guys in WitE. Almost everyone will train them up first, so the results are not as bad as historical.

A test game Dinglir vs. Hardluck would be good to check the balance of the air war

Agreed, to a certain degree.
there's more, The Sovs had no radio's except the flight leader and they where of dubious quality. Bad command and control from base. So they had to fly close enough to each other for orders through hand signals or through wing/flap signals.
flying close means you have very limited view on what is going on at your six (rear). Flying within 50m of each other in nice formation is cool but it takes a high degree of your brain power to do so, even more if you're very inexperienced. So it happened frequently that they flew behind each other, tail end Charlie is always the first to go.
In contrast, the Luftwaffe was a superbly oiled machine. Expertly led, in the air and on the ground. Actually, the Ju88 is a dive bomber and in expert hands it could compete with the Ju87 in accuracy. Unfortunately (like other Russian planes) it is a level bomber (which it off course also did).
they had developed the finger 4 formation which the British, USA and Sovs copied at one point or another. With 2 pairs, each plane flying about 400-500m from each other giving perfect view of the rear.
I can go on and on. Point is, experience of the pilots is one thing, tactics and leadership is another and it took until well into 1943 (Kursk) before the Russians came even close.

[glvaca]

I sent a PM to PH and invited him into the AAR to comment. Haven't received a reply but just so you know should he enter or post in the AAR.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I sent a PM to PH and invited him into the AAR to comment. Haven't received a reply but just so you know should he enter or post in the AAR.

I will edit out all those bad names I have been calling PH! [:D]

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I sent a PM to PH and invited him into the AAR to comment. Haven't received a reply but just so you know should he enter or post in the AAR.

I will edit out all those bad names I have been calling PH! [:D]

Do it quickly! [:D]

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
From my liited exp. the best fighter for airfield bombign is the Mig 3 due to speed and good range.

The Mig3 is indeed the best early war fighter the Sovs have.

In my opinion that is not strictly true.

The MiG-3 is the best early war escort fighter the Soviets have - due to it's high speed (compairing to other Soviet fighters) and long range. Unfortunately it is armed with little but the curses of its pilots.
The LaGG-3 is the best interceptor the Soviets have due to its heavy punch (again compairing to other Soviet aircraft). However, in a dogfight with other fighters, it will perform like a flying brick.
The Yak-1 is the best early war dogfighter the Soviets have, due to its combination of speed and firepower.

It all depends on what role you intend the fighter to fullfill.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
From my liited exp. the best fighter for airfield bombign is the Mig 3 due to speed and good range.

The Mig3 is indeed the best early war fighter the Sovs have.

In my opinion that is not strictly true.

The MiG-3 is the best early war escort fighter the Soviets have - due to it's high speed (compairing to other Soviet fighters) and long range. Unfortunately it is armed with little but the curses of its pilots.
The LaGG-3 is the best interceptor the Soviets have due to its heavy punch (again compairing to other Soviet aircraft). However, in a dogfight with other fighters, it will perform like a flying brick.
The Yak-1 is the best early war dogfighter the Soviets have, due to its combination of speed and firepower.

It all depends on what role you intend the fighter to fullfill.

The Yak is not bad. The Yak1B is much better. Both have only one nouse mounted cannon and like 15 sec (if that) of ammo. And the Svhak's but don't have the high altitude performance of the Mig.
The Mig's svhak MG's aren't so bad, they do tend to set things on fire. [:)]
The Lagg-3 if a coffin, you need to have altitude on a Bf109 to even have a chance and the F4 climbes like a rocket, is faster, out turns you, out dives you.

But I guess we can keep this up for quite a while [;)]

[bigbaba]

glvaca, what fonts do you use for the statistic screens and how do use it? looks very good and easy to read.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

glvaca, what fonts do you use for the statistic screens and how do use it? looks very good and easy to read.

Hi Bigbaba,

These are the mods I use, I think they also change the fonts.

[glvaca]

PH did not respond to my offer to present his views in the AAR so as of now he is no longer allowed to visit this AAR.
I'll continue with the AAR shortly.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: glvaca
In contrast, the Luftwaffe was a superbly oiled machine. Expertly led, in the air and on the ground. Actually, the Ju88 is a dive bomber and in expert hands it could compete with the Ju87 in accuracy. Unfortunately (like other Russian planes) it is a level bomber (which it off course also did).

While the point is valid I just wanted to put some of the contrary views. A lot of the historical research I was reading up on actually points to the Nazi period as the most inefficient in German history. There were numerous redundancies on everything as multiple agencies were tasked with the same job and competed more on political rivalries. In a centralised system you could at least claim there is no duplication and clear lines of responsibility, in a decentralised system normally the incentive to compete on results. The Nazi system combined the worst elements of both. It successes were more due to the heroic efforts of those who worked in it than because of it.

Whatever Goerings qualities as a Nazi politician and pilot, as head of the Luftwaffe he was no asset. His deputies like Udet really did the good work - and then they started committing suicide.

Nazi administration grossly inflated equipment requirements and procurement. The dive bombing capability not just of the Ju88 but other "level bombers" was a case in point. Why create a requirement which will then not be used. Whatever the jokes about Soviet equipment it was brutally well procured. Soviet designers had the expected life spans and battle durations of equipment and reduced tolerances and design specifications accordingly. Soviet armaments were production engineer led whereas Germany was design engineer led. Soviet production tended to be on a moving assembly line with hard moulds, fixed jigs etc, German production on a standing assembly line with adjustable moulds and jigs. German procurement specifically required "flexibility" from manufacturers - and used it constantly. There were numerous variations made which were mostly "nice to haves". Nor were they block phased, they were introduced straight away. So typically on a German production line the next to be finished was a different version from the last to be commenced. Although the Tiger tank is not an aircraft, its story is analogous. The manual of the first tiger tanks boasted it took 100,000 man hours to produce, ten times more than the best Soviet tanks. It is a good tank, but not as good as ten of the best Soviet tanks.

Added to this the Luftwaffe had its own doctrinal dead ends. They never had a heavy bomber. And not only was the dive bombing capability of level bombers superfluous, even the Stuka dive bombers became worthless without air superiority. The jet fighter was needlessly delayed by the requirement that it should carry bombs. And so on.

While ultimately the Allies had the industrial might, Germany still was a major modern industrial nation. It simply should not have ceded air superiority in the west as soon as it did.

Rather than seeing the Luftwaffe as a well lead and oiled machine it would be better to see it as the enthusiastic glider pilots who learnt their war time trade fighting as the Condor Legion in Spain. They were effective as they "learnt by doing". As the core was lost and the organisation expanded it lost its edge as the allies learnt faster by doing more.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: glvaca
In contrast, the Luftwaffe was a superbly oiled machine. Expertly led, in the air and on the ground. Actually, the Ju88 is a dive bomber and in expert hands it could compete with the Ju87 in accuracy. Unfortunately (like other Russian planes) it is a level bomber (which it off course also did).

While the point is valid I just wanted to put some of the contrary views. A lot of the historical research I was reading up on actually points to the Nazi period as the most inefficient in German history. There were numerous redundancies on everything as multiple agencies were tasked with the same job and competed more on political rivalries. In a centralised system you could at least claim there is no duplication and clear lines of responsibility, in a decentralised system normally the incentive to compete on results. The Nazi system combined the worst elements of both. It successes were more due to the heroic efforts of those who worked in it than because of it.

Whatever Goerings qualities as a Nazi politician and pilot, as head of the Luftwaffe he was no asset. His deputies like Udet really did the good work - and then they started committing suicide.

Nazi administration grossly inflated equipment requirements and procurement. The dive bombing capability not just of the Ju88 but other "level bombers" was a case in point. Why create a requirement which will then not be used. Whatever the jokes about Soviet equipment it was brutally well procured. Soviet designers had the expected life spans and battle durations of equipment and reduced tolerances and design specifications accordingly. Soviet armaments were production engineer led whereas Germany was design engineer led. Soviet production tended to be on a moving assembly line with hard moulds, fixed jigs etc, German production on a standing assembly line with adjustable moulds and jigs. German procurement specifically required "flexibility" from manufacturers - and used it constantly. There were numerous variations made which were mostly "nice to haves". Nor were they block phased, they were introduced straight away. So typically on a German production line the next to be finished was a different version from the last to be commenced. Although the Tiger tank is not an aircraft, its story is analogous. The manual of the first tiger tanks boasted it took 100,000 man hours to produce, ten times more than the best Soviet tanks. It is a good tank, but not as good as ten of the best Soviet tanks.

Added to this the Luftwaffe had its own doctrinal dead ends. They never had a heavy bomber. And not only was the dive bombing capability of level bombers superfluous, even the Stuka dive bombers became worthless without air superiority. The jet fighter was needlessly delayed by the requirement that it should carry bombs. And so on.

While ultimately the Allies had the industrial might, Germany still was a major modern industrial nation. It simply should not have ceded air superiority in the west as soon as it did.

Rather than seeing the Luftwaffe as a well lead and oiled machine it would be better to see it as the enthusiastic glider pilots who learnt their war time trade fighting as the Condor Legion in Spain. They were effective as they "learnt by doing". As the core was lost and the organisation expanded it lost its edge as the allies learnt faster by doing more.

I always appreciate your comments/advice. [;)]
And I agree with most except for your last comment. It is true they used the glider schools to prepare for a new Luftwaffe during the early days of Hitler in power to get around the restrictions of Versailles. And, yes, they learnt a great deal from the condor legion in Spain. But by 1941, that was a thing of the past.

In a nutshell, my interpretation of your post exposes the weaknesses of Hitler's political rule. He created conflicting agencies who would compete for power and would come to him for a decision. For me this is "divide and rule". And, yes, Goering was an idiot addicted on morphine.

My comment was more directed at the German fighter gruppe and their commanders in the field. I recommend you read: Stopped at Stalingrad, The Luftwaffe and Hitler's defeat in the East 1942-1943, Joel S.A. Hayward.

[glvaca]

TURN11 NORTH START
No pics from T10 so here's the starting position on T11.
The most import thing of T10 was prediction of mud on T11 in the North Soviet zone which sets me thinking.
Von Manstein's Corps leaves Leningrad to link up with 2nd PzG remaining PzC which retreats West for some R&R out of the predicted mud. Both Corps will receive a HQ buildup this turn to form the Northern pincer for Moscow.
2 Zocced divisions just South of lake Ilmen attract a crowd. No less than 3 Airborne bgd's form a flimsy line and I have units who can get into their rear. Jummy [:'(]

[glvaca]

TURN11 NORTH END
Almost forgot to mention it, the pocket North of Smolensk is completely cleaned out, finally. In between Mud and re-opening of the pocket I lose 4 turns.
II Corps (16th Army) is moved South to reinforce the drive for the Valdai.
The Killing in Leningrad goes fast and I'm getting ready to send the Fins to carry the attack forwards on the lower Volkhov.
Reinhardt's PzC is getting ready to leave Leningrad.

[glvaca]

TURN11 CENTRE/SOUTH START
As in the Centre/North I pull out the Panzers for some R&R and mostly to get them out the mud zone. My plan is to skirt the Mud zone and strike towards Bryansk using 2 PzC of PzG3 and the borrowed PzC of PzG2. And off course the infantry of 4th Army and Corps from 18th and 6th Army who have been drawn ever more North.
All these PzC have received a HQ buildup the turn before and are still in very good shape.

[glvaca]

TURN11 CENTRE/SOUTH END
The PzC from the South cuts a wide path going North and ends up just were it is needed. I know the pocket is loose and will be broken but the Bryansk line is definitely broken.
I also displace a couple of airbases which helps with causing losses to his air force.
Next turn, I should have close to full movement and a lot of infantry to consolidate the pocket.

[glvaca]

TURN11 SOUTH START
The PzC in the red circle was moved over the Dnepr last turn and received a buildup. It will now spearhead the drive for Stalino.
If people complain about Panzers never running out of fuel, well, I can certainly attest they do! HQ buildup's are a necessity, especially in the South but also in the Centre.
As was visible on a previous screenshot, Kharkov is abandoned after the appearance of a ton of infantry.
The road to Stalino is blocked by a checkerboard defence that will eat mvpts.

[glvaca]

TURN11 SOUTH END
Stalino is to well defended for a hasty attack by only one Panzer Div. Gorlov & Makeeva are not and fall with some industry left.
I simply don't have the movement to protect against Cav divisions with a lot of movement and, off course, he will take advantage of that. Still, the breach is made, and Rostov is now in my sights.

[glvaca]

OOB
Notice the dramatic drop in Russian Armour after the elimination of the Smolensk/Leningrad pockets.

[glvaca]

GROUND
The captured trucks almost compensate for the lost trucks doing build-ups. My truck pool is still at 190K

[glvaca]

AIR
A better turn for the Luftwaffe. I'm still almost 8-1 ahead. Not bad but could have been much better.